Feedback and Suggestions (Path of Exile 1) - Map Progression vs RNG 2.0 ( Feedback & Consolidated Player Solutions) - Forum

Hello everyone! After reading the forums more and more, I decided to add to my original map progression feedback thread. Unfortunately I hit the 50k character limit and quite honestly, that thread derailed and turned into something else entirely. So, I decided burn it down and start again! This thread was created to vent my frustration and add my feedback and ideas, along with the ideas of others, in the hopes of influencing some change to the current map progression RNG wall. Here is a link to the developers diary regarding maps as a suitable end game. ___________________________________________________________________________________ In general Maps currently are imho 110% luck based in terms of progression. Sure there are ways to stack the odds in your favor, so that you might continue getting enough or more than enough maps to sustain you forever. But what I am talking about here is progressing up the map level chain. Based the information I have been able to find from posts made by Chris, I think maps currently function exactly as they were meant to. My goal here, is to prove to GGG that their system is not really all that fun and challenging for many players. What I wish to show is: Endgame being entirely based on luck, is not fun. Being stuck in maps 20 levels below you is not challenging. Repeatedly farming low level maps in the hopes of gaining access to higher level maps feels unrewarding, punishing, and boring. Certain mods provide vastly superior chances at map drops than harder and higher iiq bonus mods. Many players are still running out of 68+ maps even while stacking the odds in their favor and spending huge amounts of currency, forcing them to go back to level 66 and 67 maps. Chisels are not an option for progression. They are mandatory. As such, the availability of them is far to low. I realize this is a great wall of text below. Some things you can skip but please, if you read nothing else at least read through my suggestions and the suggestions of other players and ABSOLUTELY feel free to comment, refine, or add suggestions of your own to the thread. For the sake of GGG taking this thread seriously, PLEASE keep it constructive. Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________________ Below you will find my mapping experiences as an open beta player. I did play in closed beta, but not long enough to reach endgame. My mapping experience --------------------------------------------------------> Map progression is all LUCK. I will freely admit my first attempt at progression was done all wrong. I made to many assumptions about how map drop rates work, and generally was uninformed about map progression. That lead to me running completely out of maps very quickly. My second attempt was more thought out and planned ahead of time. Rather than just running all my higher level maps until I ran out and hoping for the best, I followed many peoples suggestions and mini-guides on how to stack the odds in my favor. This worked wonderfully in getting from 66-68 maps. However, from 69 on, my horrible luck proved to be greater than any combination of map mods. After WEEKS of grinding maps, I was able to accumulate 9 maps level 70-71. Carefully following the forums and advice of ppl I know to be in high level maps, I proceeded to chisel and roll all 9 of these maps very specifically in the hopes that I could continue to get more 70+ maps to drop. All of the indoor maps were mazed, all of the maps had a minimum of 80% iiq, and 2 of them had over 120%iiq. In total, I spent over 100 chaos orbs to roll these maps in my favor based on what ppl claim to be "correct" mods for map success. I gathered a few of my close friends to share these maps with, and we proceeded to run all 9 of them. In the end, after running 9 maps of lvl 70-71, I was left with 3 new maps 70+ and 2 level 69 maps. I was crushed. My friends shared in my anger. It was a bad day. After taking some time to cool my anger, I decided to try again. This time, I would build a pile of no less than 30 70+ maps! When I began my new quest of map progression I still had over 30 lvl 69 maps left from my old attempt. So I started running those, again carefully spending my hard farmed currency to roll them with the best mods to keep me in the maps. I had to spend about every other day farming alterations with my farming char in order to keep rolling these maps. Again, I have very very poor luck, and most times it took me over 30 alterations to maze an indoor map. Today, I am down to my last 2 level 69 maps. In the last week I have been completely unable to sustain even level 68 maps. I am currently running my 68s of which I have 8 left. I started with over 20 of those. So to recap, starting with: 3 level 70+ 30 level 69s and 20 lvl 68s I am left with: 10 lvl 70+ 2 lvl 69s 8 lvl 68s Those numbers do not reflect my total map drops. I would say on average I get more maps than I use, however I want to progress into higher level maps and have no interest in continually running 66 and 67 maps. I can feel the end nearing. I look in my map stash tab and watch my progression slowly going backwards for the third time, and it is a horrible feeling. My post is not unique. There are many just like me. Players who want to progress and continue to level up their favorite character rather than just keep re-rolling alts over and over. And we just can't. No matter what we do, some of us just can't get past this brick wall called RNG to the other side where sweet sweet endgame awaits us. I enjoy playing my mara. Which is why I am still playing him at 85 rather than making alts. I like having a goal to work towards in games. But this goal is starting to look unreachable for me. I know there are plenty of people out there that are able to progress in maps, but I am not one of them. I DID do it wrong, at first. Then I did my research, asked questions, and planned according. And I still couldn't get there. Why? Because of bad luck. And for me to be locked out of the endgame I want so badly to get to, because of shitty luck... is just flawed design imho. RNG belongs in the item hunt, but not in access to content. Maps have been a hot topic since I started this game. There are already countless posts about endgame and how it doesn't work in its current state. I know GGG is aware of it, and I am sure something is in the works, but I am a little worried that it will be a case of "too little, too late" if/when a fix is finally implemented. I read the entire manifesto and was glad to see that Chris is aware of a lot of the things we, the players, dislike about the game. But after the initial sigh of relief, I began to wonder if these were just pretty words designed to answer the countless threads on these subjects and nothing more. I am getting frustrated and bored. Perhaps I should take a break and come back with renewed vigor. But in my eyes, when people take a break from your game it is bad for business. This game has so many great things going for it. It also has a lot of problems. Most of which I can look past. This isn't one of them. ___________________________________________________________________________________ Here you will find what I personally find to be some of the problems that RNG causes on endgame map progression, as well as some rather one sided quotes from Chris that I feel needed to be addressed from an unlucky player's prospective. That being said, I fully understand that this is Chris's vision and have only the utmost respect for him for creating such an incredible game thus far. The problems -------------------------------------------------------------------> For me, the two biggest problems are challenge and reward. I feel like being over-leveled for the maps I am able to procure dampens the challenge no matter what mods are rolled. Now please understand I said DAMPEN, not eliminate. Certain mods can still be fatal for my mara, but being level 85 in a level 68 map is a huge advantage. The other problem for me, is reward. I feel like running these lower level maps in order to get higher level maps, is a complete waste of time and currency. And then, when I finally do get to the higher maps and willingly spend tons of chaos and chisels to roll them, inevitably I always end up having to come back to lower level maps and rebuild my higher level supply. This creates a feeling of the majority my time being wasted for a quick glimpse at what lies beyond the RNG wall. Based on what I have seen from GGG on the subject of maps and endgame, I think GGG has tunnel vision. They seem to think only about item drops, and allow that to halt progression. From what I can tell, GGG believes we are choosing the easiest mods in order to get us the highest chance at loot with minimal challenge. While that may be true for some players, I would like to stress there are tons of players who would rather be rewarded properly for playing the harder mods. There are many players who simply want to grind in an area that provides engaging game play, aka challenge. There is a difference between farming and endgame, and I don't think GGG agrees. They seem to want to combine farming with endgame, and while this can work, it CAN NOT work when you need luck to access the higher endgame. By all means, restrict access to it, but remove RNG from the equation. Cow level for example. Anyone could do that after they beat diablo. It didn't require any sort of luck or RNG to gain access it, yet it was still restricted to only those that had slain diablo. Personally, I think endgame should be about challenge and fun with a chance at loot. Farming should be about mindless, easy, relaxing, linear grinding with iiq/iir gear in an area that provides the most efficient route possible. While I am very grateful that GGG even put an endgame in POE, I am also concerned that in the effort to balance item drops, they have effectively crippled endgame progression for all but the super rich/lucky. Farming and endgame should, imo, be separate OR access to endgame should not be based on luck. " chris wrote: Remember, if you get a bunch of people in a room to flip coins and count how many heads they get, a whole bunch of people are going to not get as many heads as they should on average and will feel that the system is unfair. For every person who has a bad experience with a string of eight maps, someone else is basking in riches. This same principle applies to everything else in this type of Action RPG that uses extreme randomness for its item system. While this is very true, it does absolutely nothing to ease the minds of the people not getting favorable coin flips. Are we supposed to feel better that "for every person who has a bad experience with a string of eight maps, someone else is basking in riches?" I take no comfort in knowing that my bad luck is balanced by someone elses good luck. This does absolutely nothing to help me progress further into the map system. Do poor people feel better knowing that there are plenty of billionaires out there basking in riches? HELL NO! It makes us even more frustrated with our current situation. " chris wrote: The nature of randomness means that conclusions drawn about playing low numbers of maps are dangerously misleading. Even when I was averaging 1.5 maps per map, I still had a run of six maps in a row where no new maps were found. I later had two maps in a row where I found three or more maps per run. That is randomness! I do rarely go on more than a 6 map streak with no map drops, and lately I average more maps now than I use. But again, this does nothing for progression. If I had to guess, I would feel very confident in saying that 75% of the maps that drop for me are lower level than the map they drop in. This makes progression EXTREMELY hard even when your averaging more than 1 map per run. " chris wrote: Players are not playing hard enough maps (in terms of mods). If you don't have mods on it, its yield may not average a new map on average. For players who are making theirs rare with difficult mods, they get more maps than they spend, on average. This is completely untrue. While I realize these quotes are taken from a thread that was made sept. 12, 2012 I cannot find any newer posts from the lead developer on his thoughts of map progression. If you read my mapping experience, you will note that when it came time to run the 70+ maps I had been working so hard towards, I chiseled each one to 20% and I re-rolled them all until I had favorable mods with a minimum of 80% iiq. This made NO difference. In fact, this didn't even help me get lower level maps. You cannot beat RNG. If RNG says NO, there is no amount of chisels, harder mods, or even specific mods that can turn that NO into a YES. " chris wrote: Players are not picking challenging enough map mods. There are several that make the map "harder" in a way that just means they find more maps without any additional difficulty. We will probably change these so that they actually make the level harder. Ideally players will roll maps to find mods that hit the sweet spot in the "how many extra maps/items do I get" vs "how badly am I going to die" tradeoff. That is because we want to keep progressing. It has nothing to do with how hard or easy the mods are. The mods that MOST ppl are rolling and re-rolling specifically give us the best possible chance at map drops. Your map drops system did this. It isn't like we don't want a challenge. But the BIGGEST challenge is getting a map of proper level to drop. I can say without hesitation that none of my friends are trying to progress to high level maps strictly for drops. We want to get there for the exp and the level appropriate challenge. The chance at loot is just a small bonus. And really, even with 120% iiq, all you see are white items everywhere. By the time I finish rolling progression maps to the favorable map dropping stats, I don't have the currency to even CONSIDER picking these whites up to craft with. " chris wrote: We are likely to make it easier to acquire the lowest levels of maps. After a lot of thinking and simulations, we are now pretty comfortable that the economic (and gameplay) damage of easier access to the first maps is low enough that we should make them more accessible to more players. We want to use this change as a reason for players to play in more of Merciless Act Three. We're discussing specific chests that drop only maps, and a system where Merciless Piety has an extra drop slot that has a reasonable chance of dropping a map. This is a good change, but I think an unnecessary one. Having been one of the players struggling to even get 66 maps not that long ago, I can assure you that if people take the time to read forums and do a little research they will have more 66 maps than they know what to do with. The real issue, is getting maps to drop inside of maps. Not getting them to drop outside of maps. Level 66 maps are already easy to get. If it was more likely to get maps from running maps, people would only need to get 5-6 lvl 66 maps together and BAM, they are mapping. But as it is now, you run out of maps because of crappy luck and THEN are forced to farm docks and piety or buy them from trade. Fixing the problem at its source is always better than applying a band-aid. " chris wrote: We note that one advantage of running maps as a party is that each player only needs to contribute 1/6 of the currency required to roll the mods they want. I see a huge pattern here. You guys actually think we are rolling these maps this way because we WANT to. We don't want to, we are FORCED to. We covet the mods that add more area and more magic monsters because THESE are the mods that give us a chance to continue our map progress. These mods are currently the best choice we have, not the ones we want. You really think I enjoy running maze maps over and over? But these mods perform better than high iiq mods in terms of map drops. And so that is why we roll them. I promise you, if you make iiq have the better chance of dropping maps, then players will stop rolling maze mods for every single indoor map. Don't believe me? Add a map vendor to the game, even temporarily. Make his maps always have 6 mods and make them HARD mods. Then watch how many people buy them. This is still beta, and tests like this can be more beneficial than simply trying it in alpha. ___________________________________________________________________________________ My suggestions These are some of the things I have been thinking about over the last few weeks. I fully admit that I don't understand in game economy and the ramifications some of these changes would cause. These are merely ideas I wanted to throw out in the hopes of encouraging some discussion and fine tuning of possible solutions to endgame RNG. I apologize if any of these ideas have been mentioned before in other threads. Suggestions --------------------------------------------------------------------> Put a minimum level cap on map drops. This will ensure that the maps you are getting are appropriate to the tier of maps your currently in. IMO +2 or -1 level should be the cap. For example, if I run a level 69 map the possible maps that can drop for me will be 68, 69, 70, and 71. It is incredibly aggravating to be running a progression map that you dumped a lot of currency into to have your only map drop be a level 66! Give the bosses an increased chance at dropping maps. Bosses are already lacking in the risk vs reward department. Some bosses are just to risky to attempt with the 15% death penalty, and on top of that they really don't drop much. If bosses are going to be hard, there needs to be a compelling reason for people not to skip them, and right now there just isn't. Increase the size of certain maps. Some of the maps are so tiny and contain so few mobs that it is almost a given that no map will drop. And with my luck, these are almost always the maps that drop for me. In addition, you can get rid of the maze and area mods that we are always forced to roll. I think maps should always be larger and contain LOTS of magic monsters. This is BY FAR my favorite solution. Allow us to purchase blank maps from the vendor for a very high cost. This makes endgame obtainable for ANYONE, and at the same time it is a currency sink. These maps should be very expensive in order to make finding your own maps much more attractive. The amount of currency I spend just rolling the mods that supposedly give me a higher chance at map drops would easily justify my buying a map from a vendor when my luck decides to take a dump on me. My favorite way to map is to simply take a map, and alch it. No matter what mods roll, hard or easy, I will run it regardless. This is so fun because it prevents me from running the same mods over and over and getting bored. Each map I have to plan ahead and swap gems accordingly. But I cannot do this. I HAVE to roll specific mods or face even lower odds of getting a map. Simply increase the drop rates, AGAIN. I really fail to see why this could ever be a problem, thought I admit I know much less than you do of game economy. If everyone is able to sustain mapping at the level they wish, think of all the currency sinking that will be going on. As it is now, many people get to maps and run them until level 80, then simply quit or make an alt, spending little to no currency in the process. Maybe make an iiq threshold, such as maps rolled with over 40% iiq have an additional 75% chance for the boss to drop a map. This gets us to run the harder mods AND is a great reason to never skip a boss. Separate progression from farming. Allow us to purchase a new kind of map from the vendor. These new maps will grant inc exp bonus instead of iiq based on the mods rolled. Allow us to choose the level of the map we purchase. This should allow players to choose between progression and item farming. While items can still drop in these new maps, you will not receive the iiq bonus the current maps give. These new maps would be great for players like me who wish to grind exp but still have some chance at loot. And these maps would allow us to choose our own difficulty level. Allow us to combine more mods for even greater reward. If we can't progress to the higher level maps, perhaps allowing up to 10 mods on a map would provide the ultimate challenge and boost the iiq high enough that we might have a shot at more maps dropping. I noticed there are 4 boxes in the map device. Perhaps we could take 2 of the same maps but each with different mods and combine them via the map device. Or perhaps a vendor recipe that takes 2 of the same maps and returns a "chaotic" version of that map which allows up to 10 mods to be rolled. I think in this case that augment orbs should be able to be used to add additional mods instead of exalted orbs. Or a new form of currency entirely? Perhaps "greater" cartographers chisels can add an additional mod to a "chaotic" map. Since you (GGG) think we aren't running hard enough mods and that we are choosing certain mods for their ease, I propose a suggestion to fix both problems. Combine certain mods together into one mod. This will allow us higher iiq while running maps with said mods. At the same time it will add difficulty to these mods. For example, combine the "fleet" mod with the "of champions" mod. This allows us to still use the mods best suited for map drops, but adds increased difficulty AND more iiq. Another example would be to combine the "labyrinthine/massive" mods with the "of suffering" mod. Ofc you would need to come up with new mods to replace the ones that are being combined so that we still have randomness to our mods, but the overall idea is to take the mods we are running, and make them harder (which you wanted) while making them even more rewarding. Have the map machine spit out map fragments upon activation. These will work similar to scroll fragments in that combining them will result in a map. These fragments should be classified by their map level. Upon placing 4 fragments of the same map level into the map device, 6 portals are created to a random map of that level with 6 random mods. This map still functions exactly like other maps, but the only difference is that it will always be 6 mods and it is not possible to re-roll these mods. Implement a map token system. Instead of dropping maps, what will drop instead will be map tokens. These tokens can be exchanged at the vendors for maps. Each tier of map will have a different token cost. For example maps level 66-69 will cost 1 token, maps level 70-73 will cost 2 tokens, and maps level 74-77 will cost 3 tokens. This would prevent our only map drop in a 77 map from being a level 66 map. Maps purchased from the vendor will be exactly as they are now. They will still need to be rolled and chiseled ect. Bonus iiq will have the same effect, accept that map drops will now be token drops. For me, this would fix the feeling of farming low level maps being a complete waste of time. If you start to run low on tokens, you buy the 1 token tier maps and rebuild you high level maps this way. It still effectively keeps players from being able to run high level maps nonstop, but at the same time allows a much quicker rebuild of your high level maps. Add a randomness to the purchase of the maps as well. Meaning if you purchase a tier 1 map (66-69) you won't know what level of map your getting until you actually purchase it. That way you can't just continually buy the highest level of each tier map. Allow us to purchase chaos orbs and cartographers chisels from the vendors. More of us would make our low level maps rare if it was not such a pain acquiring these 2 forms of currency. To put it simply, low level maps just aren't worth spending this kind of currency on. I suggest that 4 glassblowers baubles to be the cost of 1 cartographers chisel simply because it seems to follow the proper set of upgrading that is currently at the vendors. Armour scraps can be used to purchase Blacksmith whetstones which can be used to purchase Glassblowers baubles. Since cartographers chisels do the same thing that the other 3 do, increase the quality of a specific item, they should be purchasable from the vendors. It would also help if chaos orbs were purchasable from the vendors. This would free up time for us to continue farming or mapping by not having to deal with trade chat and less than courteous players. If none of these are good enough suggestions to implement, then at least make it more challenging AND rewarding to run lower level maps. Give us a way to somehow control the difficulty of the map in addition to the mod system. Being 20 levels higher than the monsters in the map you are running is a huge advantage and severely dampens the challenge. But please make it more rewarding in addition to the added challenge. This way we can feel like we are accomplishing something while we are being challenged. Again, imo, this should only be done IF there is no way for us to have easier access to higher level maps. I would much rather that, than this suggestion. ___________________________________________________________________________________ Continued on next post. DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. Last edited by Dragon585#3483 on May 8, 2013, 9:55:33 PM This thread has been automatically archived. Replies are disabled.	Posted by Dragon585#3483 on May 1, 2013, 4:48:59 AM Quote this Post
Continued from above ^ ___________________________________________________________________________________ Suggestions of other players (from various other threads) I am currently searching the forums for ideas and suggestions other players have voiced that I find to be interesting and in some cases, just plain awesome! Since my original post failed to inspire any sort of constructive feedback to the current RNG map system, I wanted to take the time and sort of consolidate as much of it as I could find from other threads in the hopes that these ideas do not get buried and forgotten. Suggestions from other players ------------------------------------------------> A wonderful collection of ideas from other players from various threads about improving endgame. GhOun I think the best solution to this problem would be, to have all of the multiplicative modifiers (like champions/maze/packsize/larger area) on one side of the affix table (lets say suffixes), while all of the non multiplicative modifiers (all of the harder mods basically) are on the other side of the affix table (lets say prefixes). Right now the multiplicative and non multiplicative mods are almost equally mixed between suffixes and prefixes. This means that it is entirely possible to have 6 non-multiplicative hard mods (resulting in a map like the one i posted on the top) which drops nothing, while it is also possible to roll 5 multiplicative easy mods + 1 additive mod (resulting in the easiest map ever) which drops more than any other map possible. If the multiplicative mods could only spawn on one side (suffixes for example), while the non-multiplicative mods can only spawn on the opposite side (prefixes for example) then we could never roll hard maps that have less loot than easy maps. If this would result in too many similar maps (because there are only so many multiplicative mods in the affix table), then you can also just decide to make all of the current suffixes into multiplicative values, while all of the prefixes are non-multiplicative. (atleast regarding map drop rate). ScrotieMcB My points: Maps are all but required and should not be replaced with any other endgame. Maps are a genius currency sink that will keep currency inflation down over time; unless the replacement system also finds an intuitive way for you to toss orbs at it, it simply won't do. I'm against any alternate endgame (even as a co-existing option) for this reason; give players the option and they probably won't spend their currency, and the market would flood. I'm against guaranteed map drops, to include minimum level caps, ability to buy an endless amount from vendor (limited per level, as with equipment, is fine), or anything else that guarantees continued progression. Not so much because I'm a RNG purist, but because it'll overly warp how people run maps. Although the 70/90/110 suggestion is much better than the usual guranteed-drop suggestion you see around here, it would still set minimum standards for what people want, and they wouldn't be encouraged to go over. Having a chance of failure no matter how high you go ensures that people go as high as they can; in order for them to run rare maps with a variety of difficult affixes, we need to encourage such behavior. As a consequence of the point immediately before this one, I accept that maps will not always be sustainable, that bad RNG will sometimes happen, and high-level characters will sometimes either have to go back to Act 3 Merci, or trade for new maps. However, players who are doing what they're supposed to be doing with maps -- making them yellow -- should enjoy a map drop rate that is on average not only sufficient for progression, but enough to create a small surplus. It should take more than just moderate bad luck, but calamitously bad luck, to run out of maps after getting a good starting reserve, assuming you're using currency on them appropriately. Balance map affix mods against each other much better. This might mean utterly eliminating mods like Massive or Labyrinthine, but it needs to be done. Right now there are a small number of good map mods and a huge number of bad ones, which leads to very predictable gameplay (same affixes every time) and currency imbalance (overuse of Alterations/Regals/Exalts, underuse of Alchemy/Chaos). We need a large number of good mods and a small number of bad mods based on build; this would give us more random gameplay (increased replay value) and better currency balance (normally won't need a reroll after Alch, the oddball bad map can be Chaos'd). Simultaneously allow instance management for map portals, while allowing group IIQ bonus to work on map drops. The instance management would allow solo to run the same map multiple times by creating new instances with unused portals; the group IIQ working on maps would prevent that solo player from finding tons more maps-within-maps compared to the group. Chisels should increase item rarity, not quantity. Chisels should not feel mandatory because you need map-in-map drops; that's what actual map affixes are for. Instead chisels should be for further improving your best map rolls. (edited in because forgot at first) All map affixes should grant equal amounts of IIQ and increased experience; loot and experience should progress hand-in-hand as far as maps are concerned. Currently, group has a huge advantage over solo when it comes to maps. The main basis for this advantage is that a solo player has to pay all costs (map + currency to upgrade map) himself, while a group can adopt two simple rules -- "map goes to maker" and "when you make, invite your friends to join in" -- to essentially split the cost of maps six ways. This means groups get far more (non-map) loot and experience on a per-map basis. If you Ctrl+click on a doorway to a new instance (Waypoints count), the game opens an Instance Management window. This window allows you to enter any previous instances (if you were there recently), or create a new instance (even if you were there twenty seconds ago). This currently works for everything except map portals. My suggestion is to allow Instance Management for map portals so that solo can create new instances with unused portals. This would allow them to put a map in the device, enter a portal and do the map, return to the lab, Ctrl+Click on portal to create new instance, run the map again... et cetera, until all portals are used up. In essence, a solo player could run the same map six times with very little additional coding on GGG's part. In return for solo gaining this ability, the group bonus would also apply to map drops; since a large group can only run the map once, it's only fair that they get more maps per run. Together, these suggestions would balance solo and group map-running. Xendran They should just take the map machine and make it a MoC roller. Press button, machine spits out list of mods, a level from 66 to 77 is generated based on the difficulty of the mods. Don't like the mods? Press the button again. The included tilesets should be only Maelstrom of Chaos tilesets, and maps tilesets that are unique and not repeats of previous content. This gives very direct risk:reward. Instead of arbitrary items determining how much EXP and what type of items you can get, the difficulty does. The machine would retain its slots, and the only maps that drop would be the uniques. So simple, yet so perfect. Important EDIT: You would still have to use orbs to roll these mods by putting them into the machine slots. Tansmutation or Augmentation orb: 1 mod Alteration orb: 2 mods Alchemy orb: 3-4 mods Chaos orb: 3-6 mods Regal Orb: 4-6 Mods Exalted Orb: +1.67 Minimum Mods, +1.67 maximum mods See Note 2 Yes, this means you can run maps with more than 6 mods (Up to 9 - 11 mods using a regal and 3 exalts in the machine). The reason for this is as follows: Why not. Assuming we get rid of mods that don't make the map harder, i don't see why we shouldn't let players try maps with a crapload of mods that are borderline impossible just for the hell of it. The 6 mod cap on gear is in order to prevent people from getting too powerful, but that doesn't apply for maps. Note 1. Maybe certain mods could be guaranteed to be in the pool by throwing in items alongside the orbs. Rare Coral Ring - x% Extra Monster Life Rare Paua Ring - Monsters Leech Mana Rare Prismatic Ring - x% Monster allres Rare Ruby/Sapphire/Topaz Ring - x% Monster Resistance (of appropriate type) Rare Iron Ring - x% increased monster physical damage Rare Gold Ring - ??? Rare Coral Amulet - Monsters regenerate life Rare Paua Amulet - Monsters leech mana Rare Gold Amulet - ??? Rare Onyx Amulet - x% Monster physical resistance Rare Jade Amulet - x% increased monster attack/cast/movement speed Rare Lapis Amulet - x% elemental reflect Rare Amber Amulet - x% physical reflect This is a great beginning of something big - I can feel that. Something like this would be good also : Rare Ruby/Sapphire/Topaz Ring - x% of damage deal by Monster in Fire/Cold/Lightning Rare Gold Ring and Gold Amulet - at first I was thinking of increasing currency / rare item droprate, but it might be imbalanced so maybe something like this might fit better : Rare Gold Ring - monster gain x frenzy charges after 30 second Rare Gold Amulet - x% increased monster damage Rare Paula Amulet - monster fire x additional projectiles Note 2. I've updated the Exalt effect from +1 to +1.67. This means that using two exalted orbs will result in +3 as opposed to the old +2, and using three will result in +5. This is because of the risk involved with using three exalts at the same time, rather than the current map system where you can exalt, and if you don't like it you can start rerolling instead of immediately losing all three. In exchange for the risk, you are getting extra mods. I should also probably specify in the OP that you cannot exalt an MoC that you've already rolled, you must put your desired number of exalts in alongside whatever rolling currency you're using. This should result in both a higher usage rate of exalts in the machine and some motherfucking crazzzzzzy maps being generated. Okanitu The current system where quantity %'s are added based on the specific rolls is a good one. Without this, my idea would have never taken root, because it strongly uses these %'s. This idea however is NOT a simple "increase base chance to drop maps, so that the quantity % matters more. Instead, consider this. If you roll a map with 70%+, upon killing the end boss, you are guaranteed to have a map that is -2 levels of the one you're currently running. My personal idea is that it's a firm roll, i.e. there is no chance for improvement upon, it will definitely be -2. If you roll a map that is 90%+, you are guaranteed to net a map that is -1 level of the map you're rolling. Again, this is upon killing the end boss. If you roll a map that is 120%+, you will get a map that is equal level with the one you're rolling, off the death of the boss. Now, I am also proposing additional changes, so as to make THESE changes more MEANINGFUL. When rolling MAGIC MONSTERS, or RARE MONSTERS, there will instead be a NEGATIVE Quantity applied to the map roll. This % would need to be left up to testing, but I think 15% seems reasonable. Additionally, MAGIC and RARE monsters in general should have the chances of dropping maps 1-2 higher should be increased by a fairly decent margain. This will give mappers a little more decision making when rolling their maps. If I've got a very small map base left, I'm liable to pick a 120% roll to guarantee I at least get my 1 map back, plus pray that the 120% as well helps me get more maps off the other monsters. Anyone who's ever played a 136% map and never got a map drop at all knows that this would be fair, and not imbalanced (i.e. no ones going to run 120+ all the time and get mad ass map drops). OR, I've got a fairly large map pool, and would rather roll 50-80% maps with magic/rare rolls, in hopes of not just staying level, but moving upward in my map levels. CHOICES. An interesting idea to go with this would be to allow Double Unique bosses to each drop a map of equal level, IF the map % is within the required amounts. To balance this I'd suggest either having Double Unique give a 0% quantity, or perhaps a small (5-8%) negative application. To reiterate, here are 2 examples. 94% Canyon Map yada yada mod yoda yoda mod blah blah Double Unique - Running this map I'm guaranteed a map that will be 1 level below Canyon, perhaps 2 if we agreed upon double unique each dropping one. I'm hoping that in addition to this, I get plum lucky on some other map drops, but the quantity sure will be nice if Im MFing. 128% Crematorium blah blah yada yada bleh No monster rolls here, just pure %'s. Here, Im garuanteed a map the same level as Crematorium. Im happy, because at this moment my pool is way too low, I cannot afford to go down in maps. And who knows, maybe some magic monster might shell out a Shrine for me. But maybe not. I'm ok with it either way. 45% Dark forest blah blah Magic Monsters Rare Monsters Belh bleh I've made the concious decision that my MAIN priority here is to move UP in my map base. I'm taking risk, because Im not guaranteed a map drop off the boss. But that's fine, I'm at a low enough level map where Im not going to be happy with an at-level map anyways. Now, I'd like to rebuddle one concern before it even arises: "Okanitu, what would stop us from rolling 120%+ Shrine/Shipyards All day 'err day?!" Nothing at all. Nor should that be an issue. For 2 reasons really. Number 1, shipyard is a 77, and as such will not be our complete end-game. We're going up eventually, so this shouldnt be a concern. And even if it was (and certainly, one level...maybe 100 map, WILL be eventually)? So what! Once you've MADE it to the actual end-game, you shouldnt be demoted time and again. This is of course my own opinion, so feel free to agree or disagree on this. Slamdancer Slamdancer ones put forward a suggestion for usage of the additional slots in the map receptacle. This was an interesting concept in that players could steer maps in the direction of their choice. His opinion was that based on the four corners, choosing one would give different inherent effects that players had at least a semblance of control over; NW - +30~50% Experience Yield NE - +30~50% IIR SE - +15 - 25% IIQ SW - +25~40% Map Yield In this manner, rolling maps had yet another dynamic to it. You could, in essence, decide what corner you would pick in relation to your map's rolls. Do you offset the low quantity of your map which has amazing demographic rolls? Do you instead run it for experience? If the IIR is high, do we go for quantity or should we further improve our chances at maps? Something to ponder. TehHammer I've stated several times that they should remove all of the area/maze/pack size/magic+/rare+ mods. They add little (if any) increase the difficulty of the map while increasing the odds of receiving more maps exponentially (especially maze/area on specific maps). They should make all maps have larger areas, more maze-ish, more rares, more blues, larger pack sizes (all in goo balance, of course), then actually reward mods on maps properly. If I run a -all resists + ele weakness + mobs do n% damage in x element map, it should have a retarded amount of quantity, instead they're all additive and it makes a map like that an unneccesary risk. If that map had 300% IIQ, people would be willing to take the risk (especially in default). EpicFail42 I'll try to make my own wall of text as systematic as I could, but first - ================================= TL;DR version ======================== A standard treadmill with level-appropriate content (maps with guaranteed map drops or some kind of "free random map anytime" a la maelstrom of chaos) which provides enough challenge and gives a pre-set timesinking leveling curve. This treadmill has limitation on drops that push a player into "bonus maps", which work as a currency sink: they take currency to roll, and provide extra chance for "good drops" at your current level. These two parts are balanced separately, which makes them much easier to implement. ========================================================================= Now that's out of the way, let's start with defining the goals for an abstract end-game system for almost any game: 1. A player is supposed to have a reasonably difficult content all (at least, most) of the time. It's boring and not fun to faceroll enemies that cannot scratch you day after day - and players who have no challenge tend to think "I won this game already" and just leave. Also, the reverse (difficulty walls, DPS check walls, etc) is a bit better, but also not a lot of fun. 2. A player has to have some kind of "progress" - so it's possible to mentally classify the time spent as a "success" of some kind, a small step on the way to something big. For this purpose drops don't count - they are random, and while a drop could be a reward for the time spent - it's not a milestone to some far away goal, and that goal is essential to give a sense of "doing something to get something". 3. A player also needs to have random rewards along the way. They need to be of a different sizes and reasonably spaced to provide an emotional roller-coaster ("I've got nothing for the whole week, I'm sad", "Wow! Two upgrades in a day, I'm finally getting there!"). 4. A player needs (yep, needs) a currency sink to get rid of "stuff" that inevitably accumulates during endgame grinding - while it looks like "getting rich" at first, if not spent, it reverses the feeling into "I spent my time on this useless stuff that clogs my stash?". So, what do we have in PoE now with maps as they are? 1. No, there is no reasonable content. Many people, especially playing solo, have to grind 66-68 endlessly, and even when they manage to jump a bit higher, they inevitably drop back, and there is no challenge at all in grinding low-level maps with high-level characters. I know it's been said by people from GGG that they are considering to separate "grinding for levels" and "grinding for gear" - and maps are currently filling the second role perfectly, and I tend to agree with that. More on that later. 2. Yes, there is a kind of a progress meter - levels, of course. Sadly, some of my friends stopped playing already because "levels are way too long, nothing changes, etc". It's a general problem, of course, and it's unreasonable to expect that every player would go to level 100, but still... Something more finely-grained than "levels" could certainly be implemented, with minor rewards (such as shops refresh at 1/2 of a level above 75, for example, or some free respec points here and there between levels, some free low-level orbs or yellow items every now and then, maybe even a few random uniques at known points). All these minor rewards have to be carefully selected, of course, to not interfere with economy much - their goal is to have something to look forward to and to work towards. Unfortunately, maps, as they are now, do not help: they go up in levels - and then back down, so there is a strong feeling of failure. 3. Yes, there are random rewards - map drops, gear drops, uniques, upgrades... No real need to do anything here. I'd say, to keep the game fresh some cheap and cheerful unique maps with reasonably high drop chance (to make them available to most players) would be perfect, but even now it seems pretty fine to me. BTW, such maps could also serve as "minor rewards" at certain points during leveling - sort of a "bits of storyline" spread among the endgame content. 4. Maps work as a currency sink, of course - you reroll them until they are "perfect", and the definition of "perfect" is different for everyone, so when you have a lot of currency, you spend more of it, and the economy stays healthy. The problem is, they also work as a currency source: the better you make them - the more "good stuff" you get from them. This makes them pretty difficult to balance. So, what is right and what is wrong? Right: maps as an idea - they certainly are innovative, interesting, engaging. Arguably, the best endgame content there is. They are also perfect for use as a "casino" - you spend some currency that you collect by grinding to get a chance for a "good map". Wrong: they are too tightly linked to "progressing" in terms of character levels - and this could be fixed. Basically, I think, there should be a standard treadmill with level-appropriate content (the same maps with guaranteed drops or some kind of "free random map anytime" a la maelstrom of chaos) which provide enough challenge and give a pre-set timesinking leveling curve with some fairly severe limitation on drops within them that push a player into "bonus maps". Bonus maps, I think, should be as difficult to roll "perfect" as items currently are, and they should be a straightforward currency sink with no guaranteed results and no further map drops in them. Spend more orbs - maybe get slightly higher chance for a unique drop (which was zero or near-zero for the basic treadmill) or for some mods on the items that drop (with appropriate rise in content level/difficulty, so low-level characters would not be able to survive if they get too ambitious). In this fashion there is no need to make the base "map item" drop rate limited in any way - they could be sold in shops and cost almost nothing (but, withough rolling, would be too low level and too low reward to bother with). This approach also solves the problem of giving extra rewards while you are grinding levels: you are working on your character and collecting currency for some time, then spend it on another bonus map - and this is a minor reward in itself. If luck is on your side - you may get a new piece of gear appropriate for your level, and that's another reward. Groups advantage is preserved (if you pool your currency, you produce better maps) to gently push players to work together, but solo players could still progress comfortably if they want to, both in levels and in gear. VictorDoom Well when i joined, the endgame was MoC, mindless grinding ledge and rocky climb which i have to say i did enjoy quite a lot, i wouldn't say bring back Maelstrom of Chaos as it was back then because of course after a while it will get boring and since it is not a currency sink everyone will be swimming in orbs and that way players will lose interest in the game quite quickly. What i and others on the forums, like Xendran, suggested is to keep maps but make it so everyone can play any map, dont make maps drop in random places and dont make people quit the game because they run out of maps and higher level maps dont drop, make them a free to have any time you want in the laboratory, choose which level map you want to do and do it, BUT also make them a currency sink: you can not do a map unless it is altered or alched,you can then proceed to chaos/regal etc it, that way people will still waste their currency trying to get the most desirable and maybe easy mods they can so they get more experience and loot. This is a change that everyone will enjoy and it would make leveling and playing the game MUCH more fun and anger free. Isnt much more to say about the endgame, i never liked the idea of a currency sink even though i know its necesarry, but the thing i dislike the most is the RNG of playing the game, i dont want to play the endgame based on luck, if im capable of running a level 77 area, let me run it endlessly and make me spend currency on it so the economy wont inflate. I never thought that this type of endgame as it is now is good, its just really unpleasant to have to farm lower level areas because you are unlucky, its the reason most people quit the game, just let us run whatever areas we can run, you wont run a 77 map at level 77 thats for sure, you can do those maps at around level 83+ without dying and with good gear. The thing i would change, and yes you can steal it, is just let us run whatever area we can run, dont make the acutal endgame based on luck, make it so we can choose which areas we wish to farm, let us progress through the maps like we do with the rest of the game, and when we reach 77 maps and we can do them let us just run them until we drop, if we get bored we just make another char and thats it, if we want to MF and we can let us MF level 75 areas as much as we want... i just dont like the idea behind being lucky to progress in a game, i want to progress with skill not luck. Phoobrak There is an inherent expectation by users that time spent will be translated into rewards and/or progression, no matter how small. This is how most exchanges work (either in real life or in video games) and is the driving motivation behind a majority of things people act on. Path of Exile attempts to break this rule with its late-game progression model, which can become one of the most irritating aspect of the game for a player that has spent a large number of hours building up a character. Players are not eased into the massively time-consuming, random nature of endgame content - rather, they hit the progression wall at full speed and often just as their character begins to feel fun to navigate and powerful enough to handle things efficiently. Access to late-game progression, with maps as the main (and, currently, only) method, is based on a large amount of random chance rather than using the usual effort-in, reward-out hamster wheel that gives users a sense of satisfaction. I believe that the way Maps are interlocked with the Solo/Multiplayer and Economy aspects creates an even more frustrating experience, since a player not only stands to lose a chunk of their time if they don't get lucky enough, but can also enter a negative return state on their investment depending on their map-rolling habits. For players with dedicated teams, the cost being divided is made somewhat trivial - players in a different situation, however, feel the sting all too often. It seems a clearer separation between the two forms of progress in the game, Experience and Equipment/Currency, could help alleviate some of the frustrations that have been voiced over and over on these message boards. The obvious choices should be given: • Having a user choose to move their character forward with increased experience gain, while in return lowering (or at least not boosting) their chance at drops. • Having the user pick a more loot-orientated path, with a lowered intake of experience. This is what maps act like currently, for solo players at least, but the opposite choice does not exist! • Having users pick a path with great returns in both experience and drops, but with a much steeper cost, an increase in difficulty and a possibility of seeing no return for their investment. Moosifer I’ve given a ton of feedback on maps, many people have agreed with me and yet there’s been no change. I think this is really a large area of my frustration with the current state of the game because this is where I want to spend the majority of my time and it seems there isn’t much time devoted to developing it into something better. - Have map mods that interact with each other making the map harder give higher IIQ. This should have been added months ago. - Make maps the same size as their non-map counterparts if not bigger. If I’m spending all this time grinding to a high lvl map then spend all my currency on it and I’m done with it in 5-10 minutes it’s so anti-climatic, I want more. Spending a week of grinding for 5-10 mins of content is just not something I want to be doing often. If you make the maps larger you can have a lower (probably much lower) drop rate. People can sustain higher maps easier and won’t spend so much to keep doing them. Also you could drop +area and maze mods in favor of something else like a mod that gives IIR but lowers IIQ. There’s many options that open up. - Make multiplicative mods give lower IIQ (like negative) and hard mods higher IIQ. Doubling mob damage isn’t even 20% more IIQ (100% damage added as X element). Getting 100% IIQ shouldn’t mean a suicide map as you guys removed the IIQ bonus we had from gear. People were running with 150-200% IIQ on gear, maps should go to the same amount. Even if it means lowering the current drop rate. - Maps should have a 1 lvl gap (so 66 then 68 then 70) and they go to 80-86, possibly 90. This way there’s a huge experience jump every time you move up a lvl in maps. In merciless you’re usually doing 1-5 areas max before the area jumps a lvl, by the time you are 10 away you’ve gained a couple lvls character and area wise. In maps you might be stuck doing 66s for a long time waiting for a supply of 67s to build up. By the time you move to 67s they aren’t much more exp than a 66. These solutions make it so people will run less maps, depending less on a high map drop rate and means they spend less rolling them while getting a higher return from their investment. Right now I feel I NEED to have an MF build to fun mapping. This isn’t fun. I don’t want to have an IIQ build to farm currency and an IIR build to find items to trade just so I can level my main while finding gear upgrades for him. I hate MFing and I don’t want to do it at all but lately I’ve been pinned in a corner with no other options. I’m not a party player, I like solo play so it’s MF build so I can keep mapping or make a bunch of characters to 60-70 which sounds boring as shit to me (I know people enjoy that, but I don’t, especially with how limited build choices are now). janus408 Right now there are plenty of people complaining about map drop rates, particularly inside of maps. GGGs response has been to up the drop rate of chisels. I have another solution/one that would work well in tandem with higher chisel rates/use: Give maps a 0-10% implicit drop quantity stat. This would be random when a map drops, and could be rerolled using Blessed Orbs. This would increase the value of Blessed Orbs in the community, which is almost nonexistant, and allow for an added 10% quantity stat on maps with little work. In conjunction with higher chisel drop rates and usage, this would provide a decent increase across the board. " ScrotieMcB wrote: Give maps implicit mods? Great idea. Giving them all the same implicit mod, and making that mod boring and pretty much mandatory for high-level maps? No thank you. Here are some far more interesting implicit mods maps could have: Players and monsters deal (20-25)% less damage Players and monsters deal (25-35)% more damage Players and monsters attack, move, and cast (15-20%) slower Players and monsters attack, move, and cast (20-25%) faster (15-25)% penetration to player and monster resistances Double-edged swords like these make for far more interesting decisions. This one by AnnoyedGrunt is kind of iffy but I still feel it is an idea that could be refined into something good. AnnoyedGrunt Okay I was thinking how could this unsustainable overpriced annoying fiasco could be fixed and I was able to come up with small idea: As to argue my solution more successfully I will list two problems with the current system that I believe really are big issue in the late game: 1. party playing has huge realy HUGE advantage over solo play (because you get more drops and share the expenses for rolling maps) 2. higher lvl map playing is impossible to be paid if you play solo my solution that could bring little more balance and at the same time still leave the RNG based system of map drops would be: steps that have to be done: 1. remove all party bonuses for item drops and currency (at least in MAP PLAY, i dare say in normal areas it does not really matter cause nobody is investing anything) 2. differentiate the chance for currency and item drops based on lvl of the MAP: a) lvl 66-69 maps = will have drop rate as if it was game of two people (therefore 50% more quantity) b) lvl 70-71 maps = will have drop rate as if it was game of three people (therefore 100% quantity) c) lvl 72-73 maps = will have drop rate as if it was game of four people (therefore 150% quantity) d) lvl 74-75 maps = will have drop rate as if it was game of five people (therefore 200% quantity) e) lvl 76-77 maps = will have drop rate as if it was game of six people (therefore 250% quantity) REMEMBER: THE ONLY THING ABLE TO DETERMINE CHANCE OF THE MAP DROPS WOULD STILL BE MAP QUANTITY ONLY, THIS WOULD ONLY AFFECT THE CURRENT DROP SYSTEM this would enable easier way of financing the maps while drops could stay the same but it would be much more fair to the solo game play and at the same time financing of the rolling of different map affixes PLAYING IN PARTY has already extreme advantages of making it easier a faster, lets balance it and give a chance to people who love solo play or have bad computers to enjoy late game too! Chalcon My suggestion: People should be able to roll very hard maps if they want to and should be rewarded with considerably more exp for doing so (if they survive). Then we may actually have some form of competitive exp-ladder in hardcore as opposed to the 2-3 groups who are economically trashing everyone else right now. It would also mean the end of being carried by joke mods like maze/packsize/areasize. Sphirek The problem people are running into with maps is simple: Higher chances to get maps closer to 66, lower chances to get maps closer to 77. It just sucks when your left with an inventory of lvl 66-69 maps where loot is light and exp is even lighter.I understand the logic, but without a doubt the map system causing massive frustration. I propose a solution. The Idea 70+ maps always drop a 'Map Fragment', off a random creature. Once you acquire 10 Map Fragments they becomes a lvl 75 map. 66+ maps always drop a 'Map Piece', off a random creature. Once you acquire 10 Map Scraps, it would become a lvl 72 map. This would allow the current drop rates to remain the same while removing the disappointing feeling when you tried and tried and tried, and are left with nothing to show for it. I have a good feeling this would be a welcome change, and highly sought after currency items. What do you think? ___________________________________________________________________________________ Below are two priceless* guides that will help newer players or anyone with questions about maps. These guides are simply a must read. Lyralei's guide will answer all of your questions and save you time and currency both. Dmouze's mini-guide is great for those that wish to jump into mapping with minimal reading. Thanks to Lyralei and Dmouze for taking the time to write them. Helpful information for newer players about maps -----------------------------> I would like to first link Lyralei's incredibly informative map resources thread for anyone that is struggling with maps, as I was in the beginning. Do yourself a favor, and read this thread. It will save you time/currency. http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/339977 I would also like to thank Dmouze for his mini-guide and for answering all of my map questions in game. Even though I know it bugged the crap outa him :P His mini-guide was very helpful to me in learning how to do lower level maps, I highly recommend anyone struggling with lower level maps to have a look. Ripped from http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/50014/page/63 Spoiler " dmouze wrote: Alright. It's very possible to maintain a pool of maps under the current system. Here's how I and many others do it: First off, never start mapping with less then 5+ 66 maps, preferrably more, but 5+ is what I usually aim for. There's no reason whatsoever to rush to maps, as your xp/hr is usually quicker somewhere you can clear quick rather then maps. Also try to make sure you can do a majority of the mapmods with little or no trouble to save yourself from having to reroll a good map just cause you can't handle it. 66 Maps. Magic. Indoors Crypt Dungeon Grotto Overgrown Ruin ^Always roll maze on these, maze with 15%+ quantity or maze+ Packsize/magic Outdoors Dried Lake Dunes Tropical Island ^Either 30%+ IIQ from two mods, or a Packsize/Magic roll with above 15% quantity. The area mods on these isn't really that desirable, more often then not it leads to more space, but no real increase in mobs. 67 maps. Magic. Indoors: Sewer Map Thicket Map ^Always roll maze on these, maze with 15%+ quantity or maze+ Packsize/magic Outdoors: Arcade Arsenal Cemetery Mountain Ledge Wharf ^Either 30%+ IIQ from two mods, or a Packsize/Magic roll with above 15% quantity. Area mod is viable on cemetary, less so on wharf but still decent, The area mod on mountain ledge is a coinflip, as it depends alot on the type of mountain ledge you spawn. 68 maps. Magic. Indoors: Spider Lair Vaal Pyramid ^Always roll maze on these, maze with 15%+ quantity or maze+ Packsize/magic Maze is very important on both these maps, especially the vaal pyramid. Outdoors: Ghetto Map Mud Geyser Reef Map Springs ^Either 30%+ IIQ from two mods, or a Packsize/Magic roll with above 15% quantity. The area mod is semi decent on springs and ghetto. 69 maps. Magic. Indoors: Catacomb Map Overgrown Shrine Tunnel Map ^Always roll maze on these, maze with 15%+ quantity or maze+ Packsize/magic Maze is important on every 69 map. Outdoors: Promenade Map Shore Map Spider Forest ^Either 30%+ IIQ from two mods, or a Packsize/Magic roll with above 15% quantity. Area is quite nice on shore, and a coinflip like the ledge on spider forest, typ of map spawned matters alot. It basicly keeps going like this for the 70+ maps too, but you make them rare, and at a point of your choosing you start using chisels. Get atleast one of (packsize/magic/rare) and as high iiq as possible for outdoors, always maze the indoors maps and try getting very high iiq. Don't try to cheap out on rolling maps. <- This is pretty much the no.1 thing that makes you run out. Spend whatever you have and more rolling the beneficial mods and you won't run out of maps. Some of the smaller maps need extra help, try getting additional iiq on those or atleast the packsize/magic mod with high iiq. This post still isn't specific enough, but as most of these posts from me, sl4y3r and others tend to get ignored I really don't feel motivated going into more detail on specific maps. Now don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the current system since it doesn't reward you for doing hard maps. I've vocalized my opinions on the matter alot on the boards. Sooner or later hopefully something gets done about it. But until then the above is what has worked consistently for me and many others. ___________________________________________________________________________________ Edit: It seems Chris has already addressed this subject on Reddit 1 month ago. Here is the quote from reddit that Chris gave in response to a post about horrible drop rates of high level maps. Quote from reddit --------------------------------------------------------------> " chris wrote: I thought about how to answer this for quite some time. The short answer is that in our substantial testing, the game is a lot more fun when the highest areas are not always constantly playable. When it's easy to get to the highest itemlevel/experience area and sit there for ages, it doesn't take long for an ARPG to become boring. We WILL have other end-game options in the future, I promise. I'm sorry they're not here yet. Thanks for your feedback and support! The post can been seen here about halfway down the page. In response to this quote I would just like to say that I am bored in my current situation, which is being stuck in 66-68 maps for the last few weeks. As players, we must do our best to convince GGG that there are some of us out there that aren't having fun because RNG has blocked our path. ___________________________________________________________________________________ edit: If I have not done so by now, I wish to make it clear that I fully understand that maps are not THE endgame. I reference them as endgame because currently, they are the highest content we can access. That being said, I am aware that more content is on the way. I only wish to influence some possible changes to the CURRENT endgame. Below is a quote from support explaining that there is no "end game" taken from here. GGG no end game --------------------------------------------------------------> " Support wrote: Hey there, Path of Exile is not finished as of yet (beta), and more content is slowly being added. The reason there is no "end game" reward is because to date, there is no end in sight. Maps are the "stop-gap" for users who've finished the current plot line. We're aiming to add a new act roughly every 9 month after full release. - Mike ___________________________________________________________________________________ Thank you for reading. There is a lot of good feedback from other players that I have compiled here. I hope you took the time to read them. I will continue to add anything I think might be helpful in persuading the devs to make map progression available to everyone. Constructive discussion and feedback is GREATLY appreciated. Those of you that agree with the message of this post, please make your voice heard. Post here and let GGG see that there are players slamming into a blockade of RNG and it is ruining their goals of reaching the top. To Chris and GGG staff, thank you for daring to be different. This game is simply mind blowing in many aspects and, up until my recent struggles with endgame progression, a pure joy to play. I have been searching for a long time for a game like this and I hope that it ends up with replay value that rivals even that of Diablo 2. I have nothing but complete and total respect for you Chris, and for the GGG team. My only wish is for this game to be my hobby for the next 10 years. -Dragon DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. Last edited by Dragon585#3483 on May 11, 2013, 2:37:44 AM	Posted by Dragon585#3483 on May 1, 2013, 4:49:08 AM Quote this Post
Reserved... just in case. Continuing to search the forums for great ideas and suggestions from other players, but I know there is a lot of good ideas/suggestions that got buried. So any help in finding these would be appreciated. DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. Last edited by Dragon585#3483 on May 1, 2013, 6:28:28 AM	Posted by Dragon585#3483 on May 1, 2013, 4:49:24 AM Quote this Post
" Dragon585 wrote: Reserved... just in case. Continuing to search the forums for great ideas and suggestions from other players, but I know there is a lot of good ideas/suggestions that got buried. So any help in finding these would be appreciated. You should probably edit this " ___________________________________In general_______________________________________ to appear correctly. Also you can remove the --------> parts from the spoilers, we aren't 2 year olds that don't know what the Show button does. All you've done is add clutter to your post by having the arrows. Computer specifications: Windows 10 Pro x64 \| AMD Ryzen 5800X3D \| ASUS Crosshair VIII Hero (WiFi) Motherboard \| 32GB 3600MHz RAM \| MSI Geforce 1070Ti Gamer \| Corsair AX 760watt PSU \| Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD & Crucial MX 500 4TB SSD's Last edited by Nicholas_Steel#0509 on May 1, 2013, 1:11:55 PM	Posted by Nicholas_Steel#0509 on May 1, 2013, 11:31:35 AM Quote this Post
Don't hold your breath on this. I doubt you will ever be able to actually progress maps without insane luck and the easy mods (pack size / area size) will always dominate the difficult mods due to design. They may tweak some numbers on quantity % but nothing meaningful will change.	Posted by thepmrc#0256 on May 1, 2013, 11:49:20 AM Quote this Post
Coming from someone who has ran 29 maps in a row without a drop I can say, maps are broken, but I have strong doubts the system will ever change, its probably the only real currency sink in the game other than fusings and jewlers. R.I.P. my beloved P.o.E.	Posted by ampdecay#1924 on May 1, 2013, 12:28:12 PM Quote this Post
" ampdecay wrote: Coming from someone who has ran 29 maps in a row without a drop I can say, maps are broken, but I have strong doubts the system will ever change, its probably the only real currency sink in the game other than fusings and jewlers. Agreed. I have not had quite that bad of a luck streak but i did do about 20 chiseled/rare 69 maps out of which I received a single level 66 map. That being said I have also had 8 maps drop in a shitty blue wharf map, and have had streaks where I get 15+ maps in 3-4 consecutive maps (avg. of 4-5 per map)... this NEVER happens when running higher level maps though. Last edited by thepmrc#0256 on May 1, 2013, 12:33:38 PM	Posted by thepmrc#0256 on May 1, 2013, 12:32:59 PM Quote this Post
I go as far as multi logging normal merveil and selling rares for alts and burn through them by the hundreds, granted my experience was in CB, its still my understanding map drops in maps are the same now in OB as they were in CB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though And out the hundred or so maps highest I ever found in closed beta was 1 level 68 map(which dropped zero maps if I recal corectly), most of them where 60-62, which I could alc and run almost any set of mods on a melee duelist. I'm kind of dreading even attempting maps because of my past experiences, I might just start hording my orbs and selling alts by the hundreds R.I.P. my beloved P.o.E. Last edited by ampdecay#1924 on May 1, 2013, 12:39:35 PM	Posted by ampdecay#1924 on May 1, 2013, 12:35:47 PM Quote this Post
" Nicholas_Steel wrote: " Dragon585 wrote: Reserved... just in case. Continuing to search the forums for great ideas and suggestions from other players, but I know there is a lot of good ideas/suggestions that got buried. So any help in finding these would be appreciated. You should probably edit this " ___________________________________In general_______________________________________ to appear correctly. Also you can remove the --------> parts from the spoilers, we aren't 2 year olds that don't know what the Show button does. All you've done is add clutter to your post by having the arrows. Hmm. That is strange, it appears correctly for me. Oh well, I will just remove the ___ Thanks for pointing that out. As for the arrows, I rather enjoyed doing them to be different. I never thought someone would be insulted by it. " thepmrc wrote: Don't hold your breath on this. I doubt you will ever be able to actually progress maps without insane luck and the easy mods (pack size / area size) will always dominate the difficult mods due to design. They may tweak some numbers on quantity % but nothing meaningful will change. Well that is why threads like this exist. To help give the devs ideas on what they could potentially change without drastically changing their system in general. " ampdecay wrote: Coming from someone who has ran 29 maps in a row without a drop I can say, maps are broken, but I have strong doubts the system will ever change, its probably the only real currency sink in the game other than fusings and jewlers. I think that the system can change and STILL be a very valid currency sink. There are several ideas on how to enable progression while still maintaining a strict currency sink. That is the general idea I want people to discuss. Obviously I would like less RNG related access to higher level maps, but at the same time I understand there NEEDS to be a currency sink involved. I just feel that spending this much currency should result in a reward more times than not. " ampdecay wrote: I go as far as multi logging normal merveil and selling rares for alts and burn through them by the hundreds, granted my experience was in CB, its still my understanding map drops in maps are the same now in OB as they were in CB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though And out the hundred or so maps highest I ever found in closed beta was 1 level 68 map(which dropped zero maps if I recal corectly), most of them where 60-62, which I could alc and run almost any set of mods on a melee duelist. I'm kind of dreading even attempting maps because of my past experiences, I might just start hording my orbs and selling alts by the hundreds I go through something similar to this daily. While I don't multibox, I do spend every other day farming rares for alterations so that I can continue to burn them on maps or trade them for chaos/chisels to burn on maps. It seems like every other day is boring, and the rest of the days are disappointing because of time/effort not paying off. DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone. Last edited by Dragon585#3483 on May 1, 2013, 1:57:00 PM	Posted by Dragon585#3483 on May 1, 2013, 1:40:54 PM Quote this Post
I have this nagging question I wish to know. Did you gents read through the whole thing, or was it just to much text to keep you interested? DISCLAIMER! The views and expressed opinions of Dragon are solely those of a drunken redneck and are not necessarily those of a sane person. Any likeness of intelligence is strictly coincidental and should not be taken seriously. His posts should not be read... by anyone.	Posted by Dragon585#3483 on May 1, 2013, 2:04:04 PM Quote this Post