Map Management Resource

Ran an Acton's the other day. Dumped 20 chisels into it too... Probably not the best investment of currency because all I got off of it was a dried lake, and it didn't even drop for me. Note: running solely devouring totem to deal with the dead is not good enough. All in all, I'd have to say that this map is worth running if only for the sake of the mechanics and music.
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AlexDiC wrote:
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gripen wrote:
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AlexDiC wrote:
I've been following this guide pretty much to the letter starting with a large pool of 66 maps. I settled for no less than 38% quantity on every map or labyrinthe or 35%+ magic/pack size. In other words, probably better than the guide recommends.

And yet, I still seem to be bleeding maps, even with such a large starting pool (about 50 66 maps and 25 67 maps). I seem to get about 0.82 maps per map I run, over the course of the past 144 maps. Why is this? Shouldn't the rate of return be above 1? Certainly I've ran enough maps to beat RNG...


Can I ask, how did you get 50 lvl 66 maps and 25 lvl 67 maps to begin with? I am struggling to get any maps whatsoever.... :(


Lots of Piety runs and purchasing maps.

As an update to my post, now that I've gotten to 68+ maps I see over 1 map drop on average per map. Usually it's like 2-4 maps dropped in one after a streak of no drops, but my map pool is steadily increasing. Another thing I've noticed is that about 25% of maps are upgrades (i.e. 68 map drops a 69 or 70), 25-30% are downgrades, and the rest stay the same level (I haven't actually added up everything, but that's what I perceive to be happening).

Also, maze seems to do nothing for my map drops (if anything, my map drops on average in mazes are worse). Coupled with longer clear times, I opt to not spend currency attempting to maze. I seem to have far better map drops in higher quantity maps. In terms of map clear efficiency, I'd rather not do maze/larger size anyways.


So I finished running 100 68 maps. Every map was alchemied, almost all were 50% quantity or higher (conservatively, a large percentage were at least 60%). The few that weren't had either multiple pack size or inhabitation mods, or maze/area size. Some were 110% quantity. 105 maps dropped, 16 66s, 25 67s, 39 68s, 17 69s, 8 70s. As I suspected, 24% were upgrades, however downgrades was much higher than originally thought, at 39%, with the remaining 37% being no change.

Qualitatively the only map mod I ever noticed to increase my drops was champions and that is most likely a bias attributed to excitement when seeing a 69 map.

Overall, the tips suggested in this guide make sense, over the long run they should increase one's map drops. But RNG is RNG, and I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of maps required to beat RNG using the strategy in the OP is near 1000, based on the fact that my run of 100 maps was almost certainly not very good by anyone's standards.

I have a pool of 46 69s to start, I'm hoping to make another run of 100 69s to get another data point. Maybe this run will be better than the last (which was better than the one before it!). Unfortunately as I get higher the amount of maps I can purchase to supplement my drops gets smaller and smaller, so we'll see how long I can keep this up.
IGN: SlurpyDurp
Last edited by AlexDiC on Jun 5, 2013, 4:42:13 AM
Im seeing exactly the same thing lately, mazes seem to reduce my chance of dropping maps if anything. The same seems to go for pack size and similar affixes.

I have been running with max quantity lately and were able to sustain my map pool better than before, but that might be subjective.
Ah...I thought I was seeing things....ran a large set of Maze-Regaled Temples/Arachnid Nests, and lost a lot of maps there.

On the other side, the Chaosed-until-high Quantity Collonade/Dry Woods/Strand maps were dropping maps like there was no tomorrow.

So for 72 I switched to high quantity for everything, and so far it seems to work well. Highlight: 110% Waste Pool (72), dropping 2x74, 1x73, 1x72 and 2x66.

Also, these high-quantiy maps are much more exciting/dangerous as well...I can no longer run in, blast everything in sight point blank, move on to next room.
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There are a few things you need to understand. Maps function as a package of three variable components:
  • External
  • Internal
  • Fixed


The external component are the affixes you roll. This is the controlled variable; you can influence this.

The internal component of the map is how the map rolls when you activate it. While you can roll the most amazing map externally, you may flop when the internals roll. This is partially the reason for selective and biased opinions you see on the forums all the time. A Labyrinthine double-demographic map can yield nothing because your base packs spawned small and the maze might even be pathetically small because the layout that was chosen by the system was inherently small.

Likewise, you could have the most terribly rolled maps externally but lucked out on the internal rolls giving you amazing packs. Nobody notices these things because they're too focused on whether or not a map will actually drop. Count your EXP gain on similar maps and you'll realise what I'm talking about. The same 77 map could yield anywhere between 800k to 1.7m EXP at lvl95 JUST because of its internals.

The fixed component are aspects of the map that can never be changed such as tileset, native base layout and signature monsters. Ever wonder why inhabitation affixes are so good on Crematorium? That's because the signature monster there are Cinder Elementals. Or why pack size isn't too hot on Tunnels? Narrow corridors. You have almost no control here, but at the very least you know what you'll be facing.


Maps were never and still aren't meant to be something that you just jump in gung-ho with no preparation, and even then as it is in business - the most prepared businessman knows the risks involved, he just works to minimize them. This is what this resource is about: minimizing risk.
Last edited by Lyralei on Jun 5, 2013, 10:15:34 AM
Well, thats pretty clear to me. And i understand that just lucking out on a high quant map vs a high quant map with some demographic rolls is very possible.

I'll have to say tho, that after several hundred of them, always going high quant and some demographic rolls if possible, and the mandatory maze on those that could roll one, i have abandoned the demographic and maze rolls for pure quantity.

Im getting more maps. Obviously, that could be due to the small sample size, but all i can say is that im simply getting more maps now than i did before. Easily maintaining my map pool (still dicking around in the 69-70 pool after running out of 72-74 for the... 3rd time? i think so.)

I'm now one of those tinfoil guys who say that demographic and size rolls come with an invisible penalty to quantity. Simply doing an area with 2-3 times the size of its parent map should yield you with 2-3 times the maps, obviously. The same goes for pack size incrases.

Are we seeing that? I at least can say, hell no. I have done metric fucktons of mazed temples that gave me one or two maps, and simply comparing mob density and size compared to for instance, bog, that yields 1-2 map on average for me with 80-95 quantity, i can say for sure that map drops seem to be quite a bit lower than they should be.

Do i have any sufficient evidence to back my claims? No, there is no way i could have some, not keeping track of mods and quantity i rolled and what they yielded. Subjectively seen tho, im done with "attractive" mods on maps.
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Ran an Acton's the other day. Dumped 20 chisels into it too... Probably not the best investment of currency because all I got off of it was a dried lake, and it didn't even drop for me. Note: running solely devouring totem to deal with the dead is not good enough. All in all, I'd have to say that this map is worth running if only for the sake of the mechanics and music.


All of the unique maps are utterly worthless and its a strange thought that vaults was once worth 5 exalts when they were 1:5 with gcps.

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Lyralei wrote:
There are a few things you need to understand. Maps function as a package of three variable components:
  • External
  • Internal
  • Fixed


...


I agree, and subjectively I think my experience falls in line with exactly what you are saying, my internal variables on non-quantity affix maps were generally bad (and when they were good is when I saw the most return).

Again, I'd like to state for everyone looking at my data point that a) I think 100 map runs is still not necessarily sufficient to ensure you are not an outlier in losing (or gaining) maps and b) that for my map level, currency situation and price I can acquire maps at, rolling maze is just a risk for me; It's certainly a longer clear time for possibly minimal gains due to internal factors.

Maybe adding a note that mazing under say Temple is probably not efficient currency wise, as one can pick up additional maps for the cost of ensuring a maze, especially if one considers regaling.

Also, as a side note, in addition to the other maps randomly mazed via alchemy, I specifically ran 8 vaal maps mazed via alterations/transmutes, and regaled 4 of them, so that they were all 30% or greater. My returns were 9 maps, 3 66, 1 67, and 5 68. All in all, a decent return, only a bit unlucky that none were upgrades, however based on that small run and my previous feelings about maze, I chose to not worry about it going forward.

In conclusion, I think this map management resource is very applicable depending on your currency pool and map level. 72+ it should pretty much be followed to the letter. Prior to that depends on how much currency you have and how many maps (as stated multiple times during the guide). Clearly with 100 maps I have a much higher likelihood of getting at least the expected return of 1 map per map than someone running 10 maps, where rolling for beneficial affixes would be necessary to hopefully get at least 10 maps in return.
IGN: SlurpyDurp
Last edited by AlexDiC on Jun 5, 2013, 12:08:39 PM
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Cataca wrote:
Do i have any sufficient evidence to back my claims? No, there is no way i could have some, not keeping track of mods and quantity i rolled and what they yielded. Subjectively seen tho, im done with "attractive" mods on maps.

Me and my map buddy have just couple of 71 and 72, though I feel you pain man. It's hard to sustain the map pool and not get back to grinding some low level maps;/
I will post my map-running data, with IIQ percentages and drop quantity of maps in couple of days, when the sample size gets larger ;-)



Would you guys run this set of prefixes and affixes (maze, more monsters) or run this map with some hard mods amounting to 95% IIQ? The guide in this topic states there are the best, but I run some mazed maps that got me no maps in return, and run some 90%+ that gave couple of high level ones.
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Last edited by entropus on Jun 5, 2013, 5:36:29 PM
Some affixes in the latest patch have had their values become a variable range. I will have to update the resource to reflect this soon.

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