At this stage I have already left the game since nearly one month (whereas I played CB 2*6 months), I just keep reading the forum twice a day in hope for threads like your and huge game changer patch.
I agree with your feedback and IMHO it really demonstrate what I feel since OB, that POE have lost the ''FUN'' part along the way to OB trough build diversity loss, too often major nerfs in name of ''balance'' (without buff to long nearly forgotten underwhelming things), and thrown increased difficulty spike.
I'm also curious, what do you think about some others parts of the game that you haven't dealt with in your inital post ? Such as omnipresent rng, crafting, the mobs themselves, etc ?
At this stage I have already left the game since nearly one month (whereas I played CB 2*6 months), I just keep reading the forum twice a day in hope for threads like your and huge game changer patch.
I agree with your feedback and IMHO it really demonstrate what I feel since OB, that POE have lost the ''FUN'' part along the way to OB trough build diversity loss, too often major nerfs in name of ''balance'' (without buff to long nearly forgotten underwhelming things), and thrown increased difficulty spike.
I'm also curious, what do you think about some others parts of the game that you haven't dealt with in your inital post ? Such as omnipresent rng, crafting, the mobs themselves, etc ?
RNG has never bothered me and that's coming from one of the most unlucky people on the server. Time makes up for a lack of luck so to get that kaoms/mirror or whatever, I'll have to play 10x longer than the guy who found it one day doing a 66 map or first toon in twilight strand but I'll get it if I want it.
Crafting in CB was fun because you could tailor gear for you character. Now there's so many items for sale you are better off just buying whatever you need at whatever the cost. The harder the roll is to do yourself the easier the decision. Generally those really rare/perfect rolls would take such a large investment that it's always cheaper to buy them. That could be addressed but I have no idea how to fix that, I'm more of a balance guy.
Mobs are a tricky one. The damage across the board is just too damage high. On top of that I think the most dangerous and hardest hitters are also the fastest, carrion queens and alchemist come to mind. Act 1 and 2 you see the bears/rock/zombie dudes in vaal ruins, they all hit like trucks but they are slow. These new act 3 mobs hit like trucks, as fast as fuck, and have projectiles that can end up shotgunning you as well. It just feels excessive.
I already said earlier, I've been begging from the damage and APS on these mobs to be brought down for a long time in both alpha and beta, it never happened. So if they are firm with it I rather come up with solutions to how to deal with it rather than just QQ. It's their game, I just hope they make dealing with the insanity easier if they don't plan on taming it.
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Give melee certain advantages and add much more diversity
- Add more gap closing skills, ones where you have control and they move quick. Whirling blades is awesome for most 1h/DW builds. Leap slam is good too. Flicker strike is disorientating and lightning warp isn’t good for this. 1-2 more gap closing abilities could do wonders for general gameplay, PVP or PVE.
- I’ll talk about keystones later, but more build defining keystones. I’ll also talk about life later but if that’s the route we are going then let’s not be half assed about it. Put better life nodes in more places. If someone is investing 20-30 nodes in life then make it so they can travel any direction and get them. I don’t like having so much life but a node out of the way would be more appealing if I knew I can get the same life going that direction than if I go away from it.
- Cleave, sweep, GS and lightning strike should be SUPPORT skills. I know this is a little strange but have them work off shit like heavy strike or dual strike. Limit what they can be used with and how they function and everything. Ice shot for example has no added damage effectiveness but add LMP to it and it then has 70% of it’s effectiveness. Do the same thing with heavy strike and infernal blow. Lower their damage effectiveness (possibly to just 100%) then when you add cleave to say dual strike, it takes it down to 70%. This gives options to builds. Say I want an infernal blow GSer. I link the two, it will do less damage than single target but I can stack fire damage and have a very effective AOE that’s truly different from a GS build or an infernal blow build. Also when adding these new skills I can have 4-5 options on how to make them different rather than having a different skill, with the same supports and almost the exact same build.
- Give melee a EHP that’s strictly for them. This can be done a few different ways. Either having melee damage + leech (just leech, regardless if physical or elemental, only thing that matters is it’s from melee damage). Melee damage + life, unless the life is ridiculous, no ranged character will feel the need to get a melee/life node when there are life nodes elsewhere. DR when in melee range. Someone had a good suggestion a while back (sorry for not giving you credit who ever you are) which was a keystone which gives DR but lowers ranged damage. It could work similar to point blank but rather than scaling damage up or down it scales DR. Then maybe another keystone that gives flat evasion when using melee weapons. There’s plenty of options here it just takes testing and balancing to make them backbones of melee. I don’t think they should be free keystones but I do think we need something.
Personally i think the best melee solution i have found yet is here:
Give melee certain advantages and add much more diversity
- Add more gap closing skills, ones where you have control and they move quick. Whirling blades is awesome for most 1h/DW builds. Leap slam is good too. Flicker strike is disorientating and lightning warp isn’t good for this. 1-2 more gap closing abilities could do wonders for general gameplay, PVP or PVE.
- I’ll talk about keystones later, but more build defining keystones. I’ll also talk about life later but if that’s the route we are going then let’s not be half assed about it. Put better life nodes in more places. If someone is investing 20-30 nodes in life then make it so they can travel any direction and get them. I don’t like having so much life but a node out of the way would be more appealing if I knew I can get the same life going that direction than if I go away from it.
- Cleave, sweep, GS and lightning strike should be SUPPORT skills. I know this is a little strange but have them work off shit like heavy strike or dual strike. Limit what they can be used with and how they function and everything. Ice shot for example has no added damage effectiveness but add LMP to it and it then has 70% of it’s effectiveness. Do the same thing with heavy strike and infernal blow. Lower their damage effectiveness (possibly to just 100%) then when you add cleave to say dual strike, it takes it down to 70%. This gives options to builds. Say I want an infernal blow GSer. I link the two, it will do less damage than single target but I can stack fire damage and have a very effective AOE that’s truly different from a GS build or an infernal blow build. Also when adding these new skills I can have 4-5 options on how to make them different rather than having a different skill, with the same supports and almost the exact same build.
- Give melee a EHP that’s strictly for them. This can be done a few different ways. Either having melee damage + leech (just leech, regardless if physical or elemental, only thing that matters is it’s from melee damage). Melee damage + life, unless the life is ridiculous, no ranged character will feel the need to get a melee/life node when there are life nodes elsewhere. DR when in melee range. Someone had a good suggestion a while back (sorry for not giving you credit who ever you are) which was a keystone which gives DR but lowers ranged damage. It could work similar to point blank but rather than scaling damage up or down it scales DR. Then maybe another keystone that gives flat evasion when using melee weapons. There’s plenty of options here it just takes testing and balancing to make them backbones of melee. I don’t think they should be free keystones but I do think we need something.
Personally i think the best melee solution i have found yet is here:
Add damage reduction to melee nodes in the talent tree.
yup, eitehr global damage reduction that is only applied to melee or just lower mob damage, that is the only way to save melee, back in CB no one said melee is shit because melee could take damage, now it cant.
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Give melee certain advantages and add much more diversity
- Add more gap closing skills, ones where you have control and they move quick. Whirling blades is awesome for most 1h/DW builds. Leap slam is good too. Flicker strike is disorientating and lightning warp isn’t good for this. 1-2 more gap closing abilities could do wonders for general gameplay, PVP or PVE.
- I’ll talk about keystones later, but more build defining keystones. I’ll also talk about life later but if that’s the route we are going then let’s not be half assed about it. Put better life nodes in more places. If someone is investing 20-30 nodes in life then make it so they can travel any direction and get them. I don’t like having so much life but a node out of the way would be more appealing if I knew I can get the same life going that direction than if I go away from it.
- Cleave, sweep, GS and lightning strike should be SUPPORT skills. I know this is a little strange but have them work off shit like heavy strike or dual strike. Limit what they can be used with and how they function and everything. Ice shot for example has no added damage effectiveness but add LMP to it and it then has 70% of it’s effectiveness. Do the same thing with heavy strike and infernal blow. Lower their damage effectiveness (possibly to just 100%) then when you add cleave to say dual strike, it takes it down to 70%. This gives options to builds. Say I want an infernal blow GSer. I link the two, it will do less damage than single target but I can stack fire damage and have a very effective AOE that’s truly different from a GS build or an infernal blow build. Also when adding these new skills I can have 4-5 options on how to make them different rather than having a different skill, with the same supports and almost the exact same build.
- Give melee a EHP that’s strictly for them. This can be done a few different ways. Either having melee damage + leech (just leech, regardless if physical or elemental, only thing that matters is it’s from melee damage). Melee damage + life, unless the life is ridiculous, no ranged character will feel the need to get a melee/life node when there are life nodes elsewhere. DR when in melee range. Someone had a good suggestion a while back (sorry for not giving you credit who ever you are) which was a keystone which gives DR but lowers ranged damage. It could work similar to point blank but rather than scaling damage up or down it scales DR. Then maybe another keystone that gives flat evasion when using melee weapons. There’s plenty of options here it just takes testing and balancing to make them backbones of melee. I don’t think they should be free keystones but I do think we need something.
Personally i think the best melee solution i have found yet is here:
Add damage reduction to melee nodes in the talent tree.
yup, eitehr global damage reduction that is only applied to melee or just lower mob damage, that is the only way to save melee, back in CB no one said melee is shit because melee could take damage, now it cant.
To be fair, melee did start getting shitty (relatively speaking) after chain, fork and the prevalence of double totems, not so much a defensive issue though. I also still can't believe how many people disregard the relative nerf to melee and buff to range with quicksilvers.
I see I came here late to the "party", but nonetheless, here is my two cents.
Great feedback Moosifer, both as in very valid and nicely articulated.
The idea of current melee gems being supports is really appealing to me - it would instantly make some of my CB tries viable, such as Viper Strike DoT Melee Ranger.
There isn't much more to comment on, because I agree with pretty much everything. I've seen most of the issues myself (but not all of them), I'm just never brave enough to make such long post, touching many delicate problems.
I hope you stay with us for longer Moosifer, and thank you for this, and all the great suggestions/feedbacks from OB, and CB.
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Thanks for the reply :) again I agree with you overall especially concerning mobs, I have the same feeling too since the first time I entered Sarn's Slum. It's my biggest grip against ACT3, mobs there as so much stronger and unforgiving than their ACT1&2 counterpart that suddenly for this act only you pass from ultimate-warrior-of-doom to screaming-damsel-in-distress. It's lack a certain, I don't know, bash-thousand-of-merveil-spawn-or-ape feeling sometime (at least there is ribbon).
I agree too on crafting it's a little sad to see such a deep and complex system reserved for end-game only trading or crafting, IMHO it should be less hard (and so, costly) to get standard gear from it (3-4L etc), so people are more willing to use it time to time to fill a specific gap in their gear. Especially since the introduction of chaos resistance, now we nearly need an all-good-mods-only item in each slot to survive, kill, and farm at the same time.
Arf sorry, I don't want to hijack your thread with my rant eheh so I end here, but it deserved better than a simple bump :)
Last edited by Hecate67#7661 on Mar 20, 2013, 11:52:31 AM
Yeah, GGG needs to stop with the silly patches and start fixing these fundamental issues ASAP. Heck, due to the map issue, I completely stopped playing this game all together. Upgrading maps == pay to play.
Last edited by coli#0236 on Mar 20, 2013, 12:41:45 PM
I'm not a big fan of "feedback" posts on these forums any more. It's usually the same group of people with one perspective or point of view gathering with one purpose only. And if you even try sharing your own experience and solution you get yelled at and told to never come back. I personally have not been affected by this, i mostly hang around in the class forums helping people with their builds, but I've seen it be done to others.
With that being said, I'm not a big fan of Moosifer. He has always seemed like one of those people who doesn't want "outsiders" to come ruin 'his' game. But he did provide a lot of good feedback with this post, and it shows that he does care for the game's well being.
I really hope this thread can stay on topic though, so that the developers can get constructive feedback. After all, it has been mentioned several times in this thread already, that they seem to be reacting more to mass complaints rather than good and constructive criticism.
So here's my feedback
* I don't agree with the "nerf everything and build up from the ground" concept. There are definitely some big nodes on the passive tree that need to be remodeled, but completely ruining them isn't gonna help any one in the long run. For the devs to be able to gather as much data as possible they need people to actually play with these nodes active.
* Melee is in a bad spot for sure. But it can easily get too powerful as well. I think VictorDoom said it best, the mobs leave very little time for skill and reaction to play a part in the game play. Something that ranged classes usually get a lot of time for. I'm not suggesting that they need to dumb the game down, but if melee don't have time to react, then the game becomes russian roulette.
* On that same note, i think we need to be patient, especially now when so many new skills are being introduced. I never played CB when you had the 4-way option, i really like the sound of that however, and i hope this is something they still consider an option.
* Life and Auras is something i have been talking about (mostly with my friends on voice coms) for a very long time now. These two things NEED to change to promote diversity in builds. You'll never see more and creative/fun builds on the forums when it's mandatory to have at least 3 auras and 250-300% increased life %. Inner Force is way too strong still and some auras are becoming so invaluable to almost all the specs out there, it's getting boring.
* The progression curve definitely changed in OB. Leveling during CB felt right, all the way to end game. While now, you constantly hit walls where you are forced to spend time either grinding or paying for certain gear to get around. Again, i don't want them to dumb things down, i just want that fluidity back in the game.
* There definitely needs to be some equality between mana and blood magic. There's a reason almost ALL my characters are blood magic, it's just easier and a LOT more fun to play when you don't have to constantly juggle your mana pool. EB is a good option, but it still feels inferior to BM. Granted EB gives you even more auras, but that doesn't always help.
What i find hard, from a player's point of view, is knowing where the line between "Our Vision for the game" and "We just need to shut this group of people up for a while" is. Is this game open to be molded by it's community, or are things set in stone?
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Last edited by Relidar#4309 on Mar 20, 2013, 12:47:43 PM
