So, how strong is the story/lore in this game?

I'm fairly disappointed with the current implementation of story and lore in the game. I'm pretty sure that Chris got tired hearing me talk about it. Which reminds me, I need to talk to Chris about some of the new dialogue that I'm not satisfied with (looking at you fetid pool quest).

Nice to see you have such a great working relationship with the man, tpapp. :)

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Nice to see you have such a great working relationship with the man, tpapp. :)

Chris is great because he tolerates my long explanations about why this or that minor details absolutely has to be changed.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

"

zeto wrote:

Story is vital... it gives motivation and purpose to both your characters, other characters, and areas.

Without story, the game is nothing but a statistical mess.

I agree to a degree, zeto. I think without a premise the game is nothing but a statistical mess. From there, you can start to build the character's story through interaction with npcs, 'achievements' (in the true sense of the word!) and exploration. Progression through a game's levels to me=story IF it's done well. PoE still has some work to go there but we've definitely seen more characterisation and quest clarification over the past few patches, I feel.

But the OP asked for lore, not story. I strongly urge we do not confuse the two. In LOTR, for example, the lore incorporated things that were never meant to see light of day (The Silmarillion, being JRR's personal bible, sort of reads...like a bible) but enriched the story. Thus the story can be a great vehicle for lore but should never, ever be the bulk of it. The story is how character/s move through the legacy of the lore, as it were.

I think Wraeclast is absolutely fascinating just based on the flavour text of the uniques, the monsters, the absence of fantasy gaming standards (standard currency, different races, helpful npcs, thriving towns) and the hints of what-was. The lore of Wraeclast to me is in the ruins, the leftovers. As we move further inland, more and more of what-was is becoming what-is, and that's crucial to understanding what this journey is meant to be, I think.

We're less heroes than explorers, less conquerors than adventurers. There's something really old-school about it all, something almost like Conan or Indiana Jones. Both start from a relative zero, just exploring and digging, with Conan trying to steal whatever he can and Indy finding things that belong in a museum. But both had stories that conveyed a sense of wonder not through the epic narrative but through the scenes as they were discovered. A generic cave might contain a great sword, or some lost tunnel might lead to a Mayan treasure.

I love that feel.

That all said, act 3 has the story, the quests and developments that probably push our character not just towards the lore of Wraeclast but into it.

The pacing to me is perfect. I'm not overwhelmed by names, races, history, blah blah blah. I'm dumped here, surviving, slowly...and then I start to gain a grasp of where I am. What it's like. It's soon less survival and more exploration -- that's where the learning of the lore begins.

I, for one, am very grateful that GGG hides most of the lore on this site. That they can convey it through the game instead.

I understand what you're saying, although to me it's kinda just mincing words. 'Stuff' has to happen... whether that 'stuff' is dialogue or not can be immaterial if the content is done well.

That interaction can be talking or simply going to a place and doing something... but the purpose that is conveyed is critical.

Perhaps for me, the last time I really got to sit down with the game, the interaction between the world, the NPCs, and myself, wasn't really there. I felt 'talked at' rather than 'integrated into' an ongoing issue or situation in that world.

I think my first priority the next time I do a playthrough will be to iron out exactly why I felt that way.

"

tpapp157 wrote:

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Nice to see you have such a great working relationship with the man, tpapp. :)

Chris is great because he tolerates my long explanations about why this or that minor details absolutely has to be changed.

Great! When you talk to him, let him know that the quest prompt "Talk to Nessa back in town" (when you first reach the Cavern of Woe) would sound better if "town" was replaced with "camp."

That hovel ain't no town. =^[.]^=

"

Raycheetah wrote:

"

tpapp157 wrote:

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Nice to see you have such a great working relationship with the man, tpapp. :)

Chris is great because he tolerates my long explanations about why this or that minor details absolutely has to be changed.

Great! When you talk to him, let him know that the quest prompt "Talk to Nessa back in town" (when you first reach the Cavern of Woe) would sound better if "town" was replaced with "camp."

That hovel ain't no town. =^[.]^=

If someone gets the chance, we should post the entirety of the dialogue from NPCs... then users could give feedback on how and what is written and if it makes sense, or could be improved.

Sorta like the beta skills list, but for story/quests.

"

zeto wrote:

If someone gets the chance, we should post the entirety of the dialogue from NPCs... then users could give feedback on how and what is written and if it makes sense, or could be improved.

Sorta like the beta skills list, but for story/quests.

I'm in for that.

As for your response to me zeto -- mincing words is sadly a byproduct of how I behave on forums these days; the directness of what I have to actually write 'for a living' is no fun at all. I'll try to be more direct next time. And for the record, I think we're agreeing, overall, especially regarding that critical engagement between the world, npcs and yourself. Would something as simple (he says) as voice-acting help alleviate that, in bringing the npcs closer to 'life'?

Well, one thing at a time. A script doctoring by the beta testers inclined to give it a go sounds wonderful.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

shrines and npcs outside of town are definitely things I've suggested on here before multiple times. Not to mention random quests selected from a pool thereof. I'm not sure how much of PoE's existing infrastructure can allow for that, but these are some of the things that made D1 and D2 great.

I think these and maybe some other things, made me feel about this world as alien, distanced, dark, on the brink of extinction, but moving on. The world that bluntly yet not offensively, implies that you are but a mere guest.

Despite all that, reachable and giving you the opportunity to attach yourself to it, making yourself a place there, even maybe temporary.

Maybe it is just my favorite feeling, even as it is poorly described. I felt the same about Morrowind(when my PC finally could play it, and when I applied 1- patches to it), about Fallout, about Doom, maybe about most games I perceive as Art

Sorry for all the rant.

"

zeto wrote:

If someone gets the chance, we should post the entirety of the dialogue from NPCs... then users could give feedback on how and what is written and if it makes sense, or could be improved.

Sorta like the beta skills list, but for story/quests.

Count me in.

Maybe that idea will evolve to some fan creations, and that might lead developers to some new and exciting parts of a story. Or maybe not )

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

"

zeto wrote:

If someone gets the chance, we should post the entirety of the dialogue from NPCs... then users could give feedback on how and what is written and if it makes sense, or could be improved.

Sorta like the beta skills list, but for story/quests.

I'm in for that.

As for your response to me zeto -- mincing words is sadly a byproduct of how I behave on forums these days; the directness of what I have to actually write 'for a living' is no fun at all. I'll try to be more direct next time. And for the record, I think we're agreeing, overall, especially regarding that critical engagement between the world, npcs and yourself. Would something as simple (he says) as voice-acting help alleviate that, in bringing the npcs closer to 'life'?

Well, one thing at a time. A script doctoring by the beta testers inclined to give it a go sounds wonderful.

I also think we agree in general... let me elaborate on what I think might help.

I don't think that voice acting by itself is enough, albeit it does significantly help since you can hear stuff and continue the action at the same time.

I think that if we break it down logically story goes something like this:

1) who is your character, where did they come from, why are they here now? What is currently motivating them forward?

2) who is around you, where did they come from, why are they here now? In some cases.. why are they hostile? What motivates them?

3) what does the world look like? what is its geography? what are major features of this world?

4) How do we interact with the world? What are the conserved physics.. which physical rules do we need to be told... which physical rules can we experience... which physical rules can we simply assume? (for example, this goes into how magic works and whatnot)

5) When we come across an interesting locale, why is it interesting? Is it interesting to look at? Does it contain something interesting like a monster or item? Were we directed here with a quest or is it just random and we stumbled upon it?

6) How often are you offered alternatives to your current primary motivator? How many alternatives are offered?

7) How often is there a change of action or pace? How often do you interact in novel ways with the world?

These are some of the things that comprise 'story' and the trick is how do you slipstream them inside 'action' so the game doesn't ever feel like it's dragging.

The problem POE has is that currently...

1) character motivators are somewhat explored, but I don't see it played out much, other than your character starts washed up on shore.

2) I never really got a sense of this tbh, and I know that parts of this are meant to be explained later. I personally feel that aspects of this are held off too long. You have approximately 10 minutes to hook me with the bad guy, the dire situation, and what you are fighting for... I don't currently get that feeling... I just don't feel the urgency.

3) I honestly have very little idea about the world.

4) GGG seems to be still working on consistency and conveying consistency to players of the world and the things in it... at least that's what it seems like to me.. particularly in skills/effects/attacks.

5) I don't get the sense of urgency from quests that I should... some of the locales are nice though, and bosses are getting better. I feel that some direct interaction is necessary to break up the feeling that I have that I'm just stumbling into everything as I go.

6) Very rarely, if ever, do I feel that in the middle of something, I'm offered an alternative. NPCs never seek you out, you must always engage them, both in town, and in the field.

7) The biggest changes in action or pace is found, imo, in Act 2 when talking to the leaders... you get to stop and interact, which is a rare occurrence.

Anyway that's my short critique... and I know that things have gotten better over time and will continue to...

"

Ragnar119 wrote:

"

Tagek wrote:

"

Ragnar119 wrote:

ARPGs are famous for haveing a bad, or almost no plot or story, with some times a lot of lore. You can read a little of lore from monster description and areas on the site. But don't expect a plot like good RPG or adventure games, because this is not one of them. After all this is a arpg.

To be honest, this is not true at all.
Simply because the biggest and by far most important franchise in the genre has a great story and A LOT of lore.

If you talk about diablo, then no, it doesn't have a good story at all. It has a ton of lore, but story, not that much compared to other RPG games.

Diablo doesnt have good story ,he has EPIC story for me!