The Bottle Necking of the current"End Game" ie Maps

First let me start off by stating how much I love the idea of the map system. I love the fact that instead of having 2 or 3 static areas to spend all eternity grinding for end game gear you have given us a plethora of diversified areas and different degrees of difficulties.

There's just one simple issue with the current end game design. As it stands right now there is no continuous guaranteed access to the end game.

Why?

It seems a simple question put forth by the player base. Why take the time, effort, and money on designing a wonderful diversified and exciting end game mechanic only to restrict access to it.

Some of the players feel that the reason is to slow the xp progression. For those of you that are already level 85+ and are feeling this xp crunch I tip my hat to you. This is not the reason though behind restricting access to the maps. This is a by product of your extreme efficiency at playing the game out pacing the current game content. It is not the design of the game to have to xp grind to level 100 on level 66-77 end game zones. We don't even have the rest of act 3 nor any of act 4 in place yet. Once Act 4 is in place I could see that end game maps will probably top out around level 88-90. Which would be a more reasonable expectation of grinding xp to level 100.

Some players feel the reason is to simply be a huge currency sink. While this is partially true it is also not the main reasoning behind restricting continuous access to the maps. If this was the main reasoning why not simply place level 70-77 maps on the vendor for buyouts ranging from 5 to 20 exalted per map depending on the level and add in a turn in recipe of lower tier currency in exchange for exalted orbs from the vendor. This would serve as the same currency sink that the players are already experiencing except without all of the headachs and rage.


The main reasoning behind the restrictive nature of the map drop system is the throttling of end game gear drops. It makes perfect sense for GGG to want to slow down the drop rate of end game gear drop rates, but they are going about it in the wrong way. It appears GGG is trying to use a form of the standard MMO design of restricting end game gear. Which is to restrict end game zone access to raid zones and a limited number of end game gear drops per run. In POE end game zone access(MMO raid zones)is limited access because there is not enough level 70+ maps dropping. In POE you have a overabundance of drops per map, but only have 6 portals to use to bring all the loot out(MMO limiting the number of gear drops per raid run).

Below is a different approach for GGG to consider on how to throttle end game gear. Not by restricting access to maps, but through grinding maps themselves.


When GGG displayed the new race rewards they unveiled a new game system mechanic which is the tracking of race points each player earns and granting rewards based on the number of points earned. I thought to myself why not take this new game system mechanic tweak it a little and apply it to running maps as well. Now bear with me some of what I propose will bring the knee jerked comments of asinine,moronic, absolutely stupid, but if in the end it helps alleviate a lot of the frustration and rage at trying to maintain access to high level maps that a lot of the players are currently experiencing then it would be a good thing.


Here are the changes I propose:

First. Change the drop rate of maps placing them on the currency drop table which means they would be affected by increase item quantity. This of course would hugely effect the drop rate of maps.

Second. Change the item level limit on gear drops in maps only from the current structure of item level equals level of mob(+1 for magic mob +2 for rare mob). To item level equals -5 level of mob(+1 for magic mob +2 for rare mob). This will still allow decent item level drop bases for mod spawning which will still be usable by much of the player base, but will not allow the highest item levels to drop for crafting the perfect end game gear. Take for example the item level 100 coral ring that is currently only obtainable by competing in the race events. GGG is currently restricting the best end game crafting base ring to reward only.

Third. Place a point system in based on what type/level of map is completed. By completed meaning having killed 95% of all mobs on the map. This is already in place for races with the Fetid Pool full clear mob countdown. This way you can't simply spawn your excess maps for quick farming of points while lowering the frustration of wasting excessive time trying to find every single last mob spawned on the map.

Fourth. This is a example of the point structure rewarded based on what map you ran:

lvl66 white map-1 point
lvl66 magic map-2 points
lvl66 rare map-3 points
lvl66 unique map-4 points

lvl67 white map-2 points
lvl67 magic map-3 points
lvl67 rare map-4 points
lvl67 unique map-5 points

And it continues increasing one point for each higher level.
Now extra points can be earned based off mods that increase the item quantity that is currently in place as well as increased map quality. This will help generate incentive's for the player base to spend currency on upgrading their maps to earn points faster.

Fifth. Add in a special vendor in the eternal laboratory that only accepts points earned by running maps as currency. Place the current max item level white base items on the vendor. You can also add on to the vendor "take a chance" rare items that cost more then the white base items, but have added features such as always having a minimum of 3 linked sockets, rolling prefix/suffix mods from a more structured level range(ie can only spawn mods from the item level range of 70+.


With this proposal GGG can continuously tweak the flow of end game gear not through inhibiting the players ability from running end game map content, but by adjusting the number of points awarded from running end game maps and the point costs of end game gear on the vendor.


This would allow everyone the fun and enjoyment of continuously accessing and running end map content to grind towards obtaining end game gear. It would allow us as players to choose how difficult we want our end game content to be by spending currency on rerolling maps. It would allow both the solo players and group players to both be able to work towards obtaining end game gear without the removal of the randomness on gear spawns since the gear bought from vendors will still have the randomness associated in rolling the mods on them.It would also allow us as players to decide how quickly we earn points by choosing what type of maps we run. And it would also allow for a more refined approach for GGG to restrict end game gear into their game.



In closing I hope this helps GGG stimulate ideas on how to remove some of the frustration and rage currently being experienced by quite a bit of their player base that loves the endless grinding of content chasing that carrot of perfect gear. By changing the grinding focus from grinding to access end game content back to grinding end game content for end game gear.

Some interesting ideas. The idea of rep/point grinds for access to gear vendors is rather too mmo like though, not sure that would go down particularly well.

Drop rates are mostly fine as they are, when IIQ affected drop rates it was possible to get 15+ maps from a single map if you totally stacked gear which was a little excessive. Maybe instead of buying gear with points have them allow you to purchase higher level maps with them? So the points accumulated would help as a safeguard from running out of maps rather than to purchase gear. Would allow you to grind lower level maps without it feeling like a complete waste of time like it currently does now.

I really like you approach to end game content. I think simply adding a vendor that only sells maps for said points would be good enough. Maybe lv 66maps costing point equivelant of 3-4 rare map runs. Not enough points where you could never run out of vendor maps, but enough to give you another chance to stay on the map wave. And lv 70s costing 10-15 rare lv 66map runs equivelant points. But still limit the highest lvl maps to drops only. GGG stated they want the highest map lvls to feel special, exciting to run. Selling them in a shop would remove some of that feeling.

+1 good ideas guys. I miss constructive threads. /cry

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RandallPOE wrote:

Some interesting ideas. The idea of rep/point grinds for access to gear vendors is rather too mmo like though, not sure that would go down particularly well.

Drop rates are mostly fine as they are, when IIQ affected drop rates it was possible to get 15+ maps from a single map if you totally stacked gear which was a little excessive. Maybe instead of buying gear with points have them allow you to purchase higher level maps with them? So the points accumulated would help as a safeguard from running out of maps rather than to purchase gear. Would allow you to grind lower level maps without it feeling like a complete waste of time like it currently does now.

See I would much rather have a excess of map drops which would mean not losing access to end game content then grinding maps in the hopes of more maps dropping or spending currency on buying access into the end game content. Also with a excess amount of maps dropping players players would feel more incline to use the vendor recipe for turning 3 in maps for a higher level map. Which would in turn help maintain their supply of higher level maps.

I do appreciate your thoughts on the matter and willingness to attempt to help stimulate a discussion.

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dieslave wrote:

I really like you approach to end game content. I think simply adding a vendor that only sells maps for said points would be good enough. Maybe lv 66maps costing point equivelant of 3-4 rare map runs. Not enough points where you could never run out of vendor maps, but enough to give you another chance to stay on the map wave. And lv 70s costing 10-15 rare lv 66map runs equivelant points. But still limit the highest lvl maps to drops only. GGG stated they want the highest map lvls to feel special, exciting to run. Selling them in a shop would remove some of that feeling.

+1 good ideas guys. I miss constructive threads. /cry

Thank you for your thoughts on the matter as well. And in regards to the bolded section I couldn't agree more. When threads such as garner 3 times the amount of views and 15 times the amount of responses it really does make me so sad that the days of the closed beta forums are gone forever.

I am bumping this back up to the front page in hopes that it may generate some more discussion and ideas.

I dont think its an issue.

As you pointed out, we dont have the later content. What you need to remember is when we have regular lvl 70 zones, those zones will be able to drop up to 70-75 ish maps.

We'll still get lower level maps of course (probably frequently) but overall we'll (probably) get a lot more maps since atm (big guess here based on D2) you need to roll the highest item bracket first before even getting a chance at a map.

I think possibly the problem right now is actually that the map levels go too high compared to regular zone levels. If it capped at 70 that'd probably be better from a balance standpoint, but then a lot of people would possibly stop grinding away i guess.

I think if maps were common enough that i could choose to grind only a particular type (say graveyard) without needing to trade it'd be a bad thing as ppl would take them for granted. There should be at least a little bit of "ooh a map!" feeling to it.

The current map system is fine. It's very possible to have an abundant access to level 70+ maps, and the 6 portal thing doesn't really restrict loot whatsoever since you can just drop terrible rares, unless you are talking about hoarding crafting whites to sell in shops.

The thing is, I think people are not used to crafting maps, its a great concept introduced by this game. People have to figure out how each suffix or prefix affects the maps.

As a matter of fact I am continuously updating my own spreadsheet rating how good maps are, and how good they are when affected by maze or area size, etc. I'm talking about monster density etc.

I sometimes dump many chaos in mid lvl 70s maps to get good rolls, and some people even suggest crafting lvl 76+ from the ground up and regaling and spending several exalts on those maps.

So current system is great because,

A. Maps are a great gold sink for when people have got the best gear, it makes top players spend currency so they can get exp thus keeping overall inflation down. (otherwise these high lvl players would be just hording currency and outbid everyone else for best of best gear)

B. Cost/reward, it forces players to choose between either their currency or getting good rolls on their maps so they have good chance of continuing in lvl 75+ maps.


Most of the complaints about maps right now are simply because people are not used to crafting maps and ignorance of the map crafting system in general, once you know how to craft maps properly, you'll never really run out of maps of high lvl... though it does get expensive.

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Narutobieber wrote:

The current map system is fine. It's very possible to have an abundant access to level 70+ maps, and the 6 portal thing doesn't really restrict loot whatsoever since you can just drop terrible rares, unless you are talking about hoarding crafting whites to sell in shops.

The thing is, I think people are not used to crafting maps, its a great concept introduced by this game. People have to figure out how each suffix or prefix affects the maps.

As a matter of fact I am continuously updating my own spreadsheet rating how good maps are, and how good they are when affected by maze or area size, etc. I'm talking about monster density etc.

I sometimes dump many chaos in mid lvl 70s maps to get good rolls, and some people even suggest crafting lvl 76+ from the ground up and regaling and spending several exalts on those maps.

So current system is great because,

A. Maps are a great gold sink for when people have got the best gear, it makes top players spend currency so they can get exp thus keeping overall inflation down. (otherwise these high lvl players would be just hording currency and outbid everyone else for best of best gear)

B. Cost/reward, it forces players to choose between either their currency or getting good rolls on their maps so they have good chance of continuing in lvl 75+ maps.


Most of the complaints about maps right now are simply because people are not used to crafting maps and ignorance of the map crafting system in general, once you know how to craft maps properly, you'll never really run out of maps of high lvl... though it does get expensive.

The issue I have with this is the point behind maps should be crafting them for harder and harder mods to challenge your build. Right now pretty much what is happening is everyone is crafting maps for specific mods such as maze,increased # of mobs,ect in hopes of increasing their chances for maps to drop to hopefully continue running maps. Which completely defeats the wonderful possible diversity of a ever changing end game. Why not simply remove all other map prefixes/suffixes and just have maze/increased area/increased number of mobs.

Again if the whole point of the map system is a currency sink then why not put a NPC next to a portal that you pay 5 to 20 exalted to for him to unlock the portal to a select few end game zones. Because essentially this is what we are doing is paying to be able to access end game content.

First off, I tip my hat for a constructive OP without any rage. :)

Second, I think a lot of the problems with maps will simply disappear when we get act 3 and 4, and possibly more side content. However I am intrigued by the point system and special vendor you are proposing. I was a degenerate gambler in D2, there was something thrilling with spending your fortunes on RNG that way.

I know there are many ways to do so here already. :) But more ways can't really hurt. I'm not sure about guaranteed level ranges for mods and such though, I think it should be mostly RNG.

The thing I'd like to see with maps though is some kind of floor for map drops, so you can't at least get 66's out of a 72+, but at least -2 the map level.

I do agree that the map affixes might be looked over too, as it is there are a few mods you pretty much have to roll to maximize your chances for map drops. And those mods aren't even that difficult or hard to run on a map. So it's pure currency sink. Which isn't really a bad thing either though, but some of the mods that actually make the maps harder, especially in tandem on rare maps should have a better payoff.