Danut's Self-Found Gems Challenge [streamlined for Betrayal!]

Can't decide which build to play next? Are you tired of playing the same skills over and over again? Do you feel like progress became just way too easy?

Well, the answers don't really matter - I just had to start this post with something. Just keep reading to see if that's something for you.



What is it?
A self found gems challenge - that is, to commit yourself to using only the gems you find out there in the wild - designed to be played on HC. It is heavily inspired by the similar challenge proposed by jolsen26 here, so he should get all the credits for the original idea. I've just tweaked rules to my own liking, making things a bit less challenging to allow for smoother endgame progress.



Why?
Changing pace. Making progression very different from normal gameplay. Getting excited with drops again. Using skills you wouldn't even remember that are in the game. Challenging yourself. Having fun.



What else?
Besides being restricted on what gems you can use, the challenge also restricts what gear you can use. This is where my version is more forgiving than the one it has been inspired by. Generally speaking, you're not allowed to use (non-unique) gear that drops unidentified. There are three slot-based exceptions to make things more balanced as well, which we'll go through in a second. You're also allowed to pick up unidentified gear to get a white base through scouring - this can be useful when you get a good base with the right sockets, or to have a way of using Shaper/Elder bases.


1) If I can't use unidentified non-unique drops, what can I use?

Literally everything else. Uniques. White bases that you craft yourself. Anything that drops identified. Anything that doesn't drop - divination card rewards, vendor recipes, quest rewards.


2) Slot-specific rules:

2.1) Weapon slots: You're allowed to use anything you want on those.
Reasoning:
Spoiler
Attack builds are way too dependant on what weapon you're using. Limiting this would basically make only spellcasters viable.

2.2) Boots slot: You're allowed to use any pair of boots that have movement speed, or any pair that is in accordance with the general gearing rules.
Reasoning:
Spoiler
The challenge slows the game down enough by it's own, so having movement speed on boots can make things feel better. It also makes gearing slightly easier. Do note that in order to be able to use a pair of boots it must have a movement speed roll - since there are quite a few options for gearing in this challenge, boots that don't have any movement speed are excluded (unless they're in accordance with general gearing rules).

2.3) Jewels and flasks: You can use any jewels and flasks that you want.



General tips:

* Finding your first damage gem can take a while. My worst run went until The Prison before finding one. Things get easier after that. Keep an eye out for Gemcutter's Strongboxes (roll for added items) and Vaal side areas.

* Starting with a ranged weapon might be easier. Default attacking from melee range is hard at the very first zones.

* Essences are a great way of getting your needed gear early on.

* Remember to get an item filter that shows everything you want. Since you'll be mostly crafting your own bases, filtering gear by the number of links might be a good idea. For all that is sacred, don't use a filter that hides gems.



Alternative rules:

In this section I listed two alternative rules aimed at people who intend to run this challenge with more than one character. The original idea is to start from scratch and try to survive with whatever you can get on that same character. In case you die and want to reroll, you should start from scratch again. However, not everyone might be interested in the single-run nature of such rules. The two optional rules proposed here aim to provide a better sense of progression and build diversity.

1) Keeping your stash: upon starting a new character, you must delete every skill gem and non-unique item in your stash - including flasks and jewels. Every other stash item can be kept.
Details:
Spoiler
Being able to keep most of your stash upon death brings a sense of progress between characters. It also gives unique gear a special status, in that you can keep it to help another character. Gems and non-unique gear can't be kept, though, so as to keep the core of the challenge untouched.

2) Starting with something in your hand: you're allowed the purchase of a single randomly picked gem.
Details:
Spoiler
This rule has been designed as a way of increasing build diversity. As someone who played variations of this challenge in two leagues already, I realized that most playthroughs end up being somewhat similar as I tend to favour the skill type I'm most familiar with whenever I manage to get my hands on any skill of that group. Using a random thing picker and a list of all non-drop exclusive gems, you can roll a single gem which your char will be allowed to get through vendor purchases/quest rewards. Then it's your choice: plan to make the most use of that gem or stick to your original plan?

Note that this rule doesn't mean you have to used the rolled gem. There are too many trash gems in this game for this to be fun. It will be the only gem you absolutely can count on getting through the game, however, and building with it in mind can be more interesting than staying totally generic.

Also, on a final note: if you decide to play by this rule, be sure you're not going to cheat yourself. Stick to whatever gem you first rolled!




Frequently Asked Questions that no one ever asked:

1) I'm afraid of Hardcore. Can I play this on Softcore?
Spoiler
I'd strongly recommend against it. I'm a softcore player as well, but this challenge isn't really suited for softcore play. Defeating Kitava with some weird gem combo while knowing you can't die feels like an amazing achievement. Doing the same while knowing you can keep throwing your body at him just makes it feel slow.

2) The labyrinth gives a lot of gems. Can I just farm normal lab?
Spoiler
No. You're allowed to do only one run through each labyrinth. I highly recommend doing a full run to get as many gems as possible, but running lab again isn't allowed. The exception is the uber lab, if you ever make it as far.

3) What about (insert Betrayal exclusive mechanic here)? Can I use it?
Spoiler
At the point I'm writing this, no one outside of GGG knows about what Betrayal brings to the table, as the league hasn't started yet. The ruleset for the challenge is quite generic though, so sticking to it will probably work out fine for Betrayal as well.
But in the odd case of Betrayal bringing something totally new, or if anyone feels like he's missing out too much on the league stuff by not adding some weird exception to the rules, then feel free to adjust the rules. I'll also update the rules (if needed) as soon as I can see for myself how Betrayal plays.

4) I like the idea behind the challenge, but I don't think I want to play with these exact rules. Do I have any reason to stay in this topic?[
Spoiler
Yes! While I have spent quite some time making and adjusting these rules to allow for what I feel is the best balance, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. If you want to make your own version, you can also post about it here. I'd love to hear what rules you used and how your own progression went.

5) Why don't you simply make a private league with the whites-only rule?
Spoiler
Well, first of all, it would cost money to do so. And while this can make sense if you want to play with a group, I don't think it makes sense on a single player scenario.

But the biggest reason is that I don't really like the balance of playing a league where no rares drop. One of the core rules of this challenge is that you can use whatever weapon you want, so as to not limit everyone to playing with things that scale out of gem levels (aka spells). On white-only leagues, attack based builds have a terrible time.

6) This sounds like the worst idea anyone ever had. Why are you so stupid?
Spoiler
Not everyone likes playing the same way. There was a guy who went all the way up to Uber Elder without using his stash. I like playing with different gems. It's a single player game after all, so everyone can enjoy it the way they want to.



If anyone decides to give the challenge a try, post here to let us know about your progress.

Chris Wilson took my soul
Last edited by DanutMS on Dec 5, 2018, 9:10:01 PM
Last bumped on Dec 5, 2018, 9:41:08 PM
Sounds great.
Actually i was sometimes kind of wishing to have been playing the game back then, but never really though about just doing it like that.

Trying to run through the story as fast as possible with everything available even on SSFHC got kind of old and i don't really like to do it the Meta way anyway.

Started playing Grim Dawn a bit recently, which was a nice fresh experience and i presume the play speed of this challenge would be a bit akin to starting over there, but i like the PoE graphics much more :o

Dunno about the "only white items" rule for myself, but thank you very much for the idea :)
Another vote for subscription leagues. I'd love to see stuff like this added as a way of bringing in a bit more cash.
"
Shagsbeard wrote:
Another vote for subscription leagues. I'd love to see stuff like this added as a way of bringing in a bit more cash.


Actually this was something i was SO MUCH looking forward to after starting in Talisman.

+1 please.
Last edited by Antaiseito on Oct 17, 2018, 9:40:59 AM
I have played a variance of this a couple of times where you can only use reward gems, no drops or purchases.
As to what Shags and others note, yes please to paid custom leagues.
~ Adapt, Improvise and Overcome
Yeah, well. Good luck with this Challenge of yours.
I would love custom leagues too.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Good luck, sounds like fun. I did a similar challenge a while back too, I called it the "old school" challenge. It was inspired by some old PoE videos I saw. I was mesmerized by how they actually had to play the game, rather than than blitz though mindlessly, so I devised a set of rules that would emulate that "old school" feel:

1: HCSSF

2: No gem vendors (although I allowed gem rewards.)

3: No acending.

4: No div cards (ie; no Tabula), no strong boxes, no vaal side zones, no rogue exiles (or at least no picking up loot from them), etc. No league mechanics of any kind, basically.

5: No vendor recipes that craft items.

That was basically it. It wasn't designed to be super difficult, just to make to you play slower and actually think. It was a lot of fun. There was no other way I'd be able to justify playing a 2-hander Groundslam Marauder, lol. Good luck with your own challenge. :)
"
鬼殺し wrote:
it's a shame the devs are very loath to create new boards on this forum. A Variant Playstyle board would be a fucking cracker.

+1 to all of this. I won't share my own variants because they're super arbitrary...but related to this thread: when I dedicate myself to REALLY testing a class and I do it in SSF, I allocate *one* stash tab to that character and pretend the rest of my stash doesn't exist. Nothing else. Sometimes but not always I'll deny myself access to the gem vendor because I still don't approve of any of it. It was ham-fisted and lazy. I was convinced that extra gem tab was just a placeholder when we saw it in testing. Like, seriously. Virtue gems were meant to be this obscure, very powerful resource that only certain people could use and doing so usually had a cost -- but no, here's Nessa sitting on a fortune of the fuckin' things. Fine for gameplay, utterly shit for lore and immersion.

Anyway, when I do that, holy shit the game gets hard quick.

As, I imagine, life would get hard if you walked around with bricks tied to your legs.





Yeah, I think there's missed potential here. It would be fun to have a place to share all kinds of ideas. Some weeks ago a guy posted on reddit how he got all the way up to Uber Elder without touching his stash at all. Storing every map and fragment and currency in his inventory. I found it really interesting to read about. Would be cool to have a place for more things like this to be shared.

But I don't think GGG would ever do something like this. They might sell custom leagues, cause that would bring in cash, but that would be all. So what I can do is share my challenge here and see if anyone else is interested in playing.

As for the lore part, I'm not one who cares much about it, so I never really thought. But you're right, it doesn't make much sense that Nessa sells those. I've always been bothered with selling NPC's in general, in fact: like, you're there saving their asses, but there's no way they'd let you take a sword without paying. It's weird.


"
Antaiseito wrote:
Sounds great.
Actually i was sometimes kind of wishing to have been playing the game back then, but never really though about just doing it like that.

Trying to run through the story as fast as possible with everything available even on SSFHC got kind of old and i don't really like to do it the Meta way anyway.

Started playing Grim Dawn a bit recently, which was a nice fresh experience and i presume the play speed of this challenge would be a bit akin to starting over there, but i like the PoE graphics much more :o

Dunno about the "only white items" rule for myself, but thank you very much for the idea :)


I actually didn't play the game back then as well. I mean, I started one char, went all the way to level 10 or so and gave up on the game. Started again years later. But from watching videos there seem to be some similarities with playing this challenge, specially at the start. It's a really different pace of play, and one that I like. I still play normal PoE on softcore trade, but sometimes it stops being fun.

As for Grim Dawn, I actually tried that game a few times and never managed to get past the first missions. For some reason it doesn't appeal to me. I'm not sure why. But yeah, the speed is somewhat similar to this challenge. And you also end up using combinations of skills a bit more often, since you can't rely on CWDT/Totem and such.

About the white items: my version isn't strictly white items and uniques. Things like Essences help a lot, and I find it interesting to have to manage those ("do I upgrade my gloves now, or do I wait for a higher ilvl base?"; "should I use the essence on a resistance ring or a life ring?"; "this essence is best used on rings, but I already have good ones, do I use it on another piece of gear or try to get a better ring?"). And there are other ways of getting rare items. I've played two chars with these rules, and both were resist capped on act 5, so it's not that hard to get semi-decent gear.

But in any case, even if you don't like the idea of limiting your gear: if you ever decide to give a similar challenge a run - even if it's just drop only gems - post here about it. I'd love to hear your progress.


"
DoubleU wrote:
I have played a variance of this a couple of times where you can only use reward gems, no drops or purchases.
As to what Shags and others note, yes please to paid custom leagues.


Hmm, this can also be interesting. It's probably easier to start out as you can plan what you'll be getting. Personally, I like the random nature of going drop only, but I can see the appeal of this other version as well.


"
poepoe091 wrote:
Good luck, sounds like fun. I did a similar challenge a while back too, I called it the "old school" challenge. It was inspired by some old PoE videos I saw. I was mesmerized by how they actually had to play the game, rather than than blitz though mindlessly, so I devised a set of rules that would emulate that "old school" feel:

1: HCSSF

2: No gem vendors (although I allowed gem rewards.)

3: No acending.

4: No div cards (ie; no Tabula), no strong boxes, no vaal side zones, no rogue exiles (or at least no picking up loot from them), etc. No league mechanics of any kind, basically.

5: No vendor recipes that craft items.

That was basically it. It wasn't designed to be super difficult, just to make to you play slower and actually think. It was a lot of fun. There was no other way I'd be able to justify playing a 2-hander Groundslam Marauder, lol. Good luck with your own challenge. :)


I've also been impressed by some videos of old poe. I like running around blowing things up real fast (my favorite build on trade league is Flicker Strike), but it does get old at some point. Like, you don't even have to know what mobs do, as long as you get the fuck out after they die (since on-kill effects are the only that are really dangerous). That's part of the appeal of challenges like this for me, making you learn the game (even though I personally still haven't learned how to get through act 5, but I'll get there).

As for your rules, I've thought about playing without ascendancies once as well. For now I'm sticking to the rules I've posted, but this is something I want to try in the future. Maybe when I get bored next league.

If you ever give something like this a run again, let me know how it goes. Even if you don't follow my set of rules, I'd like to hear about :)
Chris Wilson took my soul
I'm not sure if anyone else will give this a run, but I'm going to post my own progress here - at the very least, I'll register what I'm doing. And maybe this encourages someone else to try as well :)

My first challenge char this league was a Ranger. She went all the way into act 5, and was my luckiest char ever in terms of drops. I got a Tabula through a prophecy on act 3, and a Lycosidae from a random rare in act 4. Since I had Molten Strike, I figured out I'd try playing with a claw and the shield. But I couldn't get any meaningful support gems, so damage and clear weren't great. Ended up getting back to bow play, using Rain of Arrows and Barrage. Was having an easy time until I met Innocence and his giant statue guys. I didn't pay enough attention and the big guy swung his weapon at my 1.3k life.

Now I'm rolling my second Delve char, "InnocenceWontGetMeAgain". He's a Duelist, currently level 11, that just made it through Brutus (and almost died at it). I've been lucky to get a unique staff, The Blood Thorn, which has a nice amount of damage and some extra damage when I block.

In terms of gems, however, I haven't been as lucky. I got a Reckoning gem which sinergizes with the whole block thing, a Ruthless gem (still looking for two linked red sockets to link it to Reckoning), a Blight gem and a Conversion Trap. Problem is, I still don't have an attack gem. Blight deals basically no damage. It is only faster than auto-attack on big packs of low life mobs, like the sea witches spawns. Everything else I'm still killing on single hits. I hope I can get some form of attack soon.

This second char also isn't following my rules strictly, since the "migrate all" option was broken. I did vendor everything that was left over in my stash from the first attempt, but Delve and Master progress has been saved. At first it felt a bit like cheating, but to be honest it's harder than starting anew. On a clean start, you can count on Niko digging your way into the mine. In my situation, all good delve rooms (gems rooms, basically) have already been looted by the other char, so I have to try to go sideways until I can find new rooms.
Chris Wilson took my soul
Last edited by DanutMS on Oct 17, 2018, 3:24:58 PM

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