Pros and Cons - Death Penalty

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ghoulavenger wrote:

I never did argue otherwise. I argued that as soon as your build is complete (which happens well before level 100, usually at level 85-90) levels beyond don't provide any significant advantage.

...180 base life and 15 passives sure as shit is significant.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Facetanking slams is VERY dependent on build and should be doable by level 85-90 as well. Basically, taking everybody to level 100 isn't going to magically make them capable of tanking slams.

...and nowhere did i ever suggest that, so AGAIN, i have no idea what you think you're arguing. but you previously just said:

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ghoulavenger wrote:

You don't tank bearers or anything else that can kill you. You avoid it.

somehow, you don't seem to realize that you're contradicting yourself in almost every post.

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robmafia wrote:

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ghoulavenger wrote:

I never did argue otherwise. I argued that as soon as your build is complete (which happens well before level 100, usually at level 85-90) levels beyond don't provide any significant advantage.

...180 base life and 15 passives sure as shit is significant.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. When your build is done, everything else is just gravy on top. More or less you'll have 108 passives by the time you're level 85. If you're ALL the way at level 100 it is about a 13.8% difference in passives on the tree. But it won't give you 13.8% more power since increasing values have dimishing returns.

That 180 base life on a heavy life build (we're pretty much ignoring all ES builds that GET NOTHING for being higher levels) is about 540 total life (assuming 200% inc life) where a minimally survivable life build will want 5k life, that is about an 11% increase, less than 1% per level. And what does it afford you to survive that you couldn't already survive before? Nothing.

I'm not saying that extra levels don't make you more powerful, they do. I'm saying that they don't make you powerful enough that death becomes less likely. Either you can do the content or you can't. There isn't really much of a middle ground since the most dangerous things are one shot mechanics.

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robmafia wrote:

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Facetanking slams is VERY dependent on build and should be doable by level 85-90 as well. Basically, taking everybody to level 100 isn't going to magically make them capable of tanking slams.

...and nowhere did i ever suggest that, so AGAIN, i have no idea what you think you're arguing. but you previously just said:

You're bashing on me for me telling you that facetanking slams while possible doesn't magically happen by being a higher level? I'm well aware that such things are possible, but just because you're higher level doesn't mean you are stronger -- this is just a different build that people can choose to play.

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robmafia wrote:

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ghoulavenger wrote:

You don't tank bearers or anything else that can kill you. You avoid it.

somehow, you don't seem to realize that you're contradicting yourself in almost every post.

There are very few builds that can facetank slams. The generalization is that you avoid things that you can kill you. This is sound despite the fact there are builds that may be able to ignore it. Why is this sound? Because making a broad statement will always have exceptions and I'm willing to account for them. But nowhere does this require a higher level, which was pretty much the heart of my argument (so is 100% consistent with my point of view). Even then some builds may in fact require level 100 (but you won't be playing that build during the leveling process and is therefor moot).

for the love of zeus.

15 passives is an entire weapon cluster (axe, sword, etc) AND the scion life wheel.

how insignificant.

180 base life + a bunch of increased life mods... yeah, sure. meaningless. one isn't any stronger with 6.5k life as with 4k, i suppose./s

you act as if one takes either no damage or 20k damage. which is especially odd, given how much you brought up "chunked."

as for diminishing returns - not really. by level 80ish, you shouldn't need to use using points on many 'highway' nodes, leaving for a higher percentage of useful nodes to be allocated.

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robmafia wrote:

for the love of zeus.

15 passives is an entire weapon cluster (axe, sword, etc) AND the scion life wheel.

how insignificant.

180 base life + a bunch of increased life mods... yeah, sure. meaningless. one isn't any stronger with 6.5k life as with 4k, i suppose./s

you act as if one takes either no damage or 20k damage. which is especially odd, given how much you brought up "chunked."

as for diminishing returns - not really. by level 80ish, you shouldn't need to use using points on many 'highway' nodes, leaving for a higher percentage of useful nodes to be allocated.

After 100% each increased damage/life/ES node is less useful than the last 100%. This is because increased modifiers are additive and not multiplicative. The passive tree is full of increased modifiers, and many are available on gear as well, which devalues the modifiers on the tree. Even if you assume that every single point you allocate is NOT a highway node, you're already adding into a diminishing returns formula. The only way not to is if you're adding something UNIQUE to your build, like a keystone -- but that would probably be part of your BUILD to begin with and not something you'd reach for at level 90+, since keystones always change the dynamic of your character.

I also operate under the assumption that minimum survivability requirements for a build is a 5k life pool. So if someone is jumping from 4k to 6.5k life past level 90, they were essentially glass cannons. Didn't you exclude those since a normal build would be built more defensively? But you got me, if a glass cannon decides to become defensible in the last stretch, he will do better in the later levels. This is more the exception than the rule though.

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The passive tree is full of increased modifiers, and many are available on gear as well, which devalues the modifiers on the tree

...lolwut

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tictrictrac wrote:

Pros:

- makes reaching a new lvl more meaningful, an accomplishment beyond just
time invested
- can prevent mindless zergrushing
- can cause players to learn to play better


Cons:

- can lead to frustration and ragequitting, which actually seems to happen
every now and then
- can encourage cowardish playing
- can be unfair, if death was caused by bug or thechnical issue

Yay, a well-meaning and productive post!

Some of the builds I made get over 2% more damage per node on average after level 90 (the builds work before then, obviously; also I'm not talking about pathing to jewel sockets for GG jewels), but going from 1M dps to 1.2M (just an example, and not a glass cannon by nowadays' standards) doesn't increase your survivability by a significant amount and chances are, the defensive nodes in range are already part of the build, so there's not much to gain in that department either, thus I agree that there is room to make a character actually feel stronger and less likely to die from leveling further.

On the other suggestions that I'll address collectively rather than individually:
Do you really think that not losing exp is that much worse than not seeing significant progress for hours or days other than working off your "debt" that you are constantly reminded by the mechanic? I honestly can't imagine that. Having short negative feedback to then push through with a longer rewarding experience is much better imo.

And yes, we have those thresholds where we stop to lose exp. They're called levels.

I personally haven't done any of the top tier bosses yet (not counting ULab among those btw). One of the reasons is actually that I'm afraid to die. But honestly that gives the bosses and their difficulty meaning.

I have played SWToR for a while, basically on a hardcore progression level (no relation to hc mode in PoE), and we would occasionally wipe away at a boss for hours, sometimes a week until everyone got the mechanics right. It was challenging in a way, but it never felt like the bosses were actually scary or a big deal. The difference in this experience is something I appreciate very much and I remember how the first time I killed Atziri felt amazing.

Now the death penalty isn't the only thing gating bosses in PoE, but it's the risk of failure that makes success so much more rewarding. If you play with a goal, e.g. reaching 100, you don't have to fight bosses, but you don't have to grind T3 for divination cards either. It's a choice of what you want to do.

so today i lost 20% cus of connection problems
thanks GGG
i feel so entertained in this game
the way up to lvl 100 feels like not possible ...
either it needs party play or 8mods t16 grinding 24/7

is this supposed to be "FUN" ??? or is this game about something else???
if "DEATH PENALTY" is supposed to be "FUN"

this game isnt for me probably ...

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tictrictrac wrote:

Pros:

- makes reaching a new lvl more meaningful, an accomplishment beyond just
time invested
- can prevent mindless zergrushing
- can cause players to learn to play better


Cons:

- can lead to frustration and ragequitting, which actually seems to happen
every now and then
- can encourage cowardish playing
- can be unfair, if death was caused by bug or thechnical issue

fake and gay lel