On Balance Feedback and Charge Changes

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NessOnett8 wrote:

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allbusiness wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

You wouldn't hold your own in an empirical dance with me! And you're lucky since im going to sleep so saving you the lesson. Also wtf are you even going on about, i'm telling them they overnerfed assassin..

Lots of work to do tomorrow - busy days ahead!

'Save me a lesson'


You mean like Pathfinders make up the majority of the top 100 3 leagues in a row?

You know they uhh...don't...right? I JUST linked the top100 in legacy for both HC and SC. And Pathfinder isn't even in the top3. Top3 are Raider, Inquisitor, and Necromancer on both lists. Pathfinder is fourth.

You check how many Pathfinders there are like in the top 100-200? You obviously didn't. Stretch that number to current top 1000 and see how many Pathfinders there are compared to Assassins. 24 Assassins in HC Legacy vs like god knows how many Pathfinders. Now take that to SC, stretch that number to top 2000 and see how many Assassins there are vs Pathfinders. And Assassins should be more wildly popular in SC because of huge DPS numbers and not giving a fuck about defense right?

Wrong. Pathfinders STILL outnumber them by a dramatic amount.

So please, stop spreading false information.

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grepman wrote:

this is 15k ladder for ALL leagues, an actual sample size

http://85.214.120.75/?thisclass=Raider&level=85+-+100&ilevel=1+-+21&class=1

raider is a class that gets at least 5 frenzies with no real investment (+1 from ascendacy, +1 from passives), a very popular class

lets see, 30% of raiders use assassin's mark, a curse that grants power charges on kill

hmmm, 30% of 1/19 is already bigger than .01 % number, EVEN if we assume the distribution is uniform (its not, raider is more popular than, say, ascendant)

ok lets see assassin now, a class that generates power charges and has +1 power charge and is a popular class (btw)

http://85.214.120.75/?thisclass=Assassin&level=85+-+100&ilevel=1+-+21&class=1

hmmmm, 47% of assassins use blood rage, a curse that (wait for it) generates frenzy charges

so, we have roughly 50% of assassins generating both kind of charges and 30% of raiders in all leagues

this alone constitutes AT LEAST 1/19*.3 + 1/19*.5 = 4.2% just off those two classes (which are very popular)

as usual, people who pull numbers from thin air, lose, and are not to be trusted with anything else they say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVcesMcLHSA

While I and others can appreciate your analysis.
You somehow missed the second part of my quote:

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A better question is can you show a single build that does? Or does 3/3 and 3/3 p/f charge through coh ass mark + bloodrage constitute grievous abuse of the charge generation system.

Are you seriously saying people slapping on bloodrage to generate frenzy for "free" is overpowered or hurts diversity? Or using coh+ass mark to generate for "free" is overpowered or hurts diversity?

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NessOnett8 wrote:

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grepman wrote:

in live version, show me 3 builds [non-summoner/support- ie deal damage yourself] that if they had some means to sustain/generate frenzy charges, would opt to not use them and instead go into other alternative ?

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1841345

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1841349

Here are both the hardcore and softcore ladders for Legacy league. You will not find a SINGLE character in the top100 of either who uses Frenzy charges unless they are a Raider, Pathfinder, or Gladiator. You will however see a LOT of inquisitors, occultists, berserkers, juggernauts, etc(who do damage themselves), NONE OF WHICH use a single frenzy charge.

So when you start out with delusional flat-earth anti-vax holocaust-denial warped worldview that doesn't actually remotely exist you are bound to come out with completely misguided and nonsensical conclusions like "Hurr dur blue for only caster, green for only attacker, build diversity be damned"

lol
your 'evidence' is hilariously bad, and its plain wrong

even this

"you will however see a LOT of inquisitors, occultists, berserkers, juggernauts, etc(who do damage themselves), NONE OF WHICH use a single frenzy charge."

is
WRONG

http://85.214.120.75/?liga=Legacy&thisclass=Berserker&level=90+-+100&ilevel=1+-+21&class=1

24% of berserkers alone in legacy softcore levels 90-100 use blood rage (which, may I remind, gives you frenzies on kill)

I think the power charge changes are fine but why not just remove the more dmg all together from frenzy charges and make frenzy charges just give more atk/cast speed so they still work for both attack and spell builds. That way it's more useful endgame for both atk and spell builds but not just "generic dmg buff."

You're literally proving my point. You have identified the two classes that are DESIGNED to use both frenzy and power charges.

I specifically mentioned that I was excluding them for this purpose which you evidently just completely ignored.

But you have yet to provide a single example of a build that isn't taking an ascendancy specifically meant to use these charges that "adds in 3 frenzy charges for the free 12% more damage" you claim. Not a single one. In your entire sample.


And that's ignoring the fact that by using statistics of "all leagues" you're pulling irrelevant data from 5 years ago, when both charges(and both curses and bloodrage for that matter) were completely different.

Which is because, as was apparent from the data I showed, which was the top, most prominent, most successful builds in the current patch, NOBODY was "adding in frenzy charges" as an afterthought to their build. Just didn't happen. They either build around frenzy(which they will still do and be just as effective), or it wasn't used.

All you've shown is that you're willing to lie and misrepresent statistics to bolster a point you've effectively admitted you know is wrong.

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allbusiness wrote:

Wrong. Pathfinders STILL outnumber them by a dramatic amount.

So please, stop spreading false information.

I literally handed you the information. It is an objective fact. Why you're choosing to focus only on assassin and ignore the actual popular classes...I guess it's the only way you can delude yourself into thinking you're making a cojent point.

But you're factually wrong. And you're the only one spreading false information. Or are you unable to count?

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FrancescoV wrote:

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No I'm lost faith in your by my standards I really do not believe you guys playing the game.

...

Man I am going to spam the shit out of these meme's

I think some of you are being too harsh with GGG.
This is a BETA, don't forget it, GGG should be allowed to put balance changes in for us to test even if they are still being worked on and even if they are far from being complete.

The problem here, in my opinion, is that these changes were released unfinished, undocumented and uncommunicated, one week prior to the final release.

No fuck that it's deserved like this is some damage control bullshit right now going on especially the chill and shock nerf that's as stupid.

See this completely unaffect me in terms of my you know play style what bothers me is the whole who the fuck proposes these garbage changes? I worry the future you see that's the big fucking deal for me.

Yes the charge shit is retarded like they made a trap chest that gives frenzy charges then you got the fucking GGG fanatics going OH JUST USE TRAP ATTACK TRAPS man that isn't the fucking point what the fuck.

WHO THE FUCK IS GOING TO CARE ABOUT SHOCK at this point you need to deal X% of a monsters hp HELLO? Boss? Guardians? Chill is based on % cold damage too so in most cases the two just got utterly destroyed and it doesn't even do anything to trash mobs because they already die in 1 - 2 hits OH BOY.

In addition with that being said see I would of BEEN PERFECTLY fine if they announced this like early in the beta instead it's the last fucking week and this pull this garbage shit right here.

and fuck this phone.

As I pointed out, this a BETA, it's quite common in BETAs to deal with unfinished stuff... both for content.. and for balance.

In the case of the new frenzy charges and body armour, they are clearly incoherent and don't make sense, but I don't think this happened because they suck at balancing the game.. I think it's because GGG wanted to put these changes in the beta to get some feedback while still not being able to accordigly adjust all the stuff that directly and indirectly is going to be affected by them.

What I find worrisome is that we are just one week away from release, and by the look of these changes they are still testing and balancing a lot of stuff, at this point balance and functionality should be set in stone... we should be bug testing and nothing more.

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grepman wrote:

24% of berserkers alone in legacy softcore levels 90-100 use blood rage (which, may I remind, gives you frenzies on kill)

What? A whopping 24%?!? That's totally overbearing and abusive. Because you claimed quite clearly it was something "Everyone did" but you can barely find less than a quarter of a single class? Hmmm. But again...that's literally an investment. And fun fact: almost all of them are using attacking skills(because spell zerkers didn't do this) meaning they are completely unaffected by this.

Show me SPELL CASTERS who are using frenzy charges. And show me the "Vast majority"(you claimed everyone did, so even finding a majority should be super easy). Or you can just admit the FACT that it was a super niche thing that people occasionally did as an option and was far from the norm.

As for saying I'm wrong, I'm not. I said top100. And none of the top100 zerkers in either list used bloodrage. As they were mostly spell zerkers. But again, keep lying about the statistics and conveniently manipulate them to say whatever you need them to at a given point. Yes, some worse builds did it. But they weren't the top. And again, even then, they were the extreme minority.

GGG,

I am not one to really ever post on the forums because I always trust what you are doing. However, after reading through nearly all replies and frustrations explained in this post, it should be clear that you fucked up. I could go on and on about why you have pigeon holed build diversity which is something that makes POE so great, but many before me have already explained the reasoning.

I was okay with the AOE nerfs in 2.6. I did not like it, but I trusted you and dealt with it. I was okay with the doubling of boss HP even though Atziri had less health than a Tier 6/7 boss....

Now, I was okay with the nerf to double dipping and trusted you that your new system would be efficient. That was a mistake. I have been playing beta since it was out as I purchased a key and I have tried several different builds attempting to build around your changes and let me tell you: You fucked up bleed so bad that it is literally useless. I rarely think any skill, unique or tactic is "useless" but bleed is fucked so bad. I understand it is beta but this has been fucked up since the release of beta and not only have you not fixed it, you nerfed it even more with these recent changes. The only reason that I am posting is because I love this game but I firmly believe you are taking it to far with the nerfs at this point. Not to mention, you are even nerfing uniques before they are even released. Poison is kind of shit as well. It is no where near as bad as bleed is at the current moment but it is not great. Maybe there is one or two builds that are decent when scaling poison but do you really want to limit build diversity for poison to one or two builds? That kills the whole thing that makes POE so fucking awesome. I respect the master piece that you created which is POE. That is also another reason why people are so outraged. Deep down, we are simply scared that this game is headed in the wrong direction due to the recent changes. As you can see, this is probably the most outraged the community has ever been in the entirety of POE's existence.

I think the smart thing to do in this situation is to just admit fault and take the outrage as constructive criticism and room to improve and get better. I think these recent changes need to be rolled back and damage with bleed and poison need to be significantly increased in order to be viable. You claimed that someone from your testing team created this godly build with poison and justified even more nerfs but we have yet to see any realistic numbers. Show us the math and proof. If it exists, then we can have a conversation around solutions to the problem. The more minds involved in discussing solutions, the better the product typically becomes. An example of this is open source software.

There is a lot of hatred in this post and I apologize that you are having to deal with that but please try to see through the ugly posts and understand that these people simply care about this game. I know in the end, you will do the right thing for the community as you always have and I do appreciate the followup reply to this post.

I love this game and at this point, I am scared for its future.

Regards,

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Sacr0 wrote:

In the recent state of the game (3.0 beta), there is one typical way to build a character: equip a spell/attack, add some dmg multiplier, aura's or curses to it and kill stuff.

This used to be different. Remember the good old days with Cast on Crit builds where you had many different things to add to your character to make it stronger. There were so many coc builds possible besides discharge.
Wormblaster was an excellent build that was really unique.
scold's bridle used to be fun.
Any burning/prolif build with elemental equilibrium was fun and challenging to craft, bleeding builds were interesting. CWDT builds/detonate dead builds/temp chains+freeze builds and yes, also poison double dip builds were fun to craft because they had some more complex mechanics in it.

They all got removed from the game or nerfed to the state that they are not viable endgame choices anymore.

I fear that some of the nerfs and mechanical changes result in too many limitations on how to build different characters ( frenzy charge only working with attacks as one example )

Game mechanics should be kept so that they dont force the player into some specific direction but increase build diversity and enable crazy combinations. The game is not just about balance, it's about fun and finding cool things to try out- that's what made PoE such a succesful game.

I could not have write it better, this is exactly how i feel! Please GGG be careful not making your game less interesting and fun for the sake of balancing... Creating a build seems very linear atm