Improve Acrobatics
" Then you're being lucky there. "Rely only on a mishmash of secondary/tertiary defenses" is a meta out of sheer popularity; a lot of the items sound better than they are. Remember that even with your LEGACY Coil and Taste, (y'know, things no one can rely on having in challenge leagues, even Legacy) That's just throwing 70% of your damage at a 75% mitigation; 52.5% reduced damage, (110.53% more eHP) that drops to 42.86% more with just the legacy coil. (non-legacy users will be saddled with only 29.03 or 60.00% more eHP depending on their uptime) And since it's a different layer, it doesn't stack TOO well with basalt flasks: the ultimate figures jump to +129.89% more eHP with legacy gear, and +90.48% more eHP without legacies. And yeah, I party with plenty of people, and those that rely on those... Have a habit of CONSTANTLY dying, even when they try to sit offscreen. Meanwhile I go diving in and soak all the hits. And again, I'm not for adding more dodge to the tree, but rather, just eliminating some of the stiff penalty Acrobatics imposes to users of anything other than Evasion+two hander. I did firmly establish that focusing purely on, say, just block will get far better gains than equal investment into both block and dodge. Simply put, because the best returns on either come at the HIGH-END of investment, splitting that investment leaves you with two mediocre layers versus one really good player. (to say nothing of actually using The Anvil for a +354.5% more eHP) Lastly, I can't confirm too much on your stats, as I you moved your gear around and didn't save/provide a PoB link, making attempting to import it became too much an issue. " When it's ES, which relies on having a huge pool, it's utterly destroyed. This'll be doubly so after the ES/CI nerf in 3.0.0, meaning taking PA has you working with 4-7k ES tops, while you could build more life with very likely far less investment, AND get the added barrier options of VP and life flasks. " If you paid ANY attention to what I'd said, (or just know how the mechanics of the game, y'know, worked) block is a form of mitigation that's an unscaled percentile... It does mean a 30% loss is far from insigificant, as each extra point added on is worth MUCH more than the one before it. So while 75% block provides 300% more eHP on top of all other methods, that 30% less, (which rounds down to 52%) which is a mere 108.33% more eHP: slightly over 1/3, (it's about 36%) but that fraction definitely gets it pretty right. (the next-up one that gets more price would have to be 4/11ths, which is just plain weird) So yeah, that statement's very correct, and the fact that you didn't catch it does indicate your understanding of the mechanics is, at the very least, a little dated... Or you just got a bit ruffled to find that the math proves your preconceived notions wrong. " Um, I dunno what game you're playing, but I don't recall people dying from tiny hits much. One-shot mechanics (or spiked damage mechanics) are kinda the defining part of the balance, that GGG had to resort to when everyone on HC stopped dying. " If it was the recharge delay that was the problem, don't you think they'd have nerfed that? 50% less TOTAL ES means it's 100% unviable to ever take it; even if you COULD manage to still get enough pool to survive big hits, you're losing so much to that penalty, and hence wasting investment in ES, you may as well ditch it and invest instead in life. (which isn't, y'know, getting penalized) Hence the obvious balance is pretty damn simple; just change the ES penalty from an ENTIRELY build-preventing "50% less ES" to "100% slower start of ES recharge. " Yep, that's what I highlighted earlier is the crux of its problem. As it stands right now, acrobatics is a reward for using a bow, while a horribly inefficient pick for pretty much everyone else, as you're better served building elsewhere. I'd like to see that fixed, so others could see it as a viable pick; namely, it could actually make evasion+ES something other than the most garbage primary defense option, and also make sense for genuine dodge+block builds WITHOUT allowing for doublecapped +1500% eHP behemoths. Rufalius, hybrid Aura/Arc/Mana Guardian | Hemorae, TS Raider | Wuru, Ele Hit Wand Trickster Last edited by ACGIFT on Jul 24, 2017, 1:05:34 AM
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" porcupines 20-odd hits in a row. each one small. all combined - deadly your 'Moath' jugg will die to any pack of these with 'added x damage' map. because you have precisely 5% chance to evade these hits so 19 out of 20 WILL hit you. there are more than few high profile streamers dying just this way on their high ES, no EV characters in general game is far more complex than this kind of napkin math 'oh, each percent is worth more than the previous one so lets max it and then it will be best' people that party with you and die - even when offscreening - are just that: people that die while offscreening. you do not know what their builds are (you might know what they TELL you their builds are - and 4.1k hp build and 6k hp build are two different stories..) ive started to trust what snorkle says - i do not agree in some points (like he underplays the role of good gear in all this) - but if it is about defences - he been there, done that SEVERAL times and his observations conincide with mine. using these 'mishmash' defences ive been doing T15 corrupted maps with characters people claim cannot do them. you can spend 20 nodes to get block cap (your guardian picks 6 dedicated nodes (10 with travel) and an ascendancy and is still not even halfway there) or you can get 2 nodes there, 3 nodes there and 5 nodes there - and get roughly the same result IN GAME (not in a very 'path of buildingish' eHP calculations). Acro is a tool. it used to be BROKEN, now it is a legit choice. just like Ondar's - that was an auto-pick and now CAN be used if needed oh btw - i though it is still possible to cap block with Acro.. | |
" its legitimately one of the best defense methods you can use on a life build. You said earlier about people not being able to level cause they die a lot, I would take a moment to look at the amount of characters I have an their levels... https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Snorkle_uk/characters and their builds, defenses, gear.. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1234566 Ive played a lot of this game and have first hand experience playing an awful lot of things. Youve partied with people, like sid says u dont know what exactly their characters are. Ive played with many things, for 1000s of hours. I would say given the amount of hours played its more likely uve been lucky than I me, Ive got 5 rangers that are higher level than your 1 ranger. If you are partying with people who die in maps then youre not partying with people playing the builds Im playing. " I showed you a video where I took out the ToH, so I had less mitigation than a new non-legacy coil and toh combo, and I swapped my dagger for one with the same dps at a 1 chaos binos and... still just facetanked that guardian in exactly the same way, it just took a little longer. It didnt change anything defensively. " Ok so figure that because that ranger uses cwdt enfeeble and blind that it probably evades as much or more than the qotf bow character, and it has a coil, and a basalt, and a toh, and enduring cry, and fortify, and that qotf has none of those things, and it has what? Nearly 3k life more than that bow character? You seriously believe that the qotf bow character can jump in and soak up 'all the hits' where this character would die? " I listed its stats, most of my chars gears and stats are listed in that thread so I can work out how to put them back together again when jumping from one to another. " I couldnt disagree more, its about the most efficient 5 nodes youre going to spend in your whole build in most cases. Take 40% less attack damage and 30% less spell damage for 5 points = horribly inefficient because you sacrifice 8% block chance? I dont think ur seeing how insane that is for such a casual spend, it doesnt even dent your other investments, youre not sacrificing any meaningful life or damage or evasion or physical mitigation, its so good ud be crazy not to take it for a lot of builds in that area. Its not about "well 75% block is better", yeah sure, but you are not getting that amount of life and damage while also getting 75% block, that is an investment that will seriously deplete other areas of your build, its a mammoth commitment. Acro is a pocket change spend. " evasion + es the most garbage defense option? Have you actually tried playing evasion + es? Ok this is evasion + es http://plays.tv/video/58a2ea967e525db3d5/ev-es-zzzzzz- the build in that video has 13,400 evasion with 16,200 es. Its so good that I would rarely ever play an es build that didnt have evasion now days. Same with coil, the idea of playing evasion life without a coil... come on, you think Ive never tried these things? trust me, Ive played a lot of evasion with no coil, its terrible compared to playing with a coil. You can argue you dont need them, you can argue that your fine with 16k es and you dont feel u need the 13k evasion, that youre fine with the pure ev build and you dont need the coil/toh/basalt/endurance. Thats fine, but they are defensively better, not just a little, they are miles better, in a completely different league. |
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" He actually doesn't! If you notice his build, he's actually REALLY good at leeching, and his staggered damage ensures that they almost never come simultaneously. It generally requires a triple element prefix setup, or at least one of those with a reduced max resist mod, to cause any noticeable effect... Which I notice these well in advance (his perma-90% physical reduction makes it ludicrously easy to notice these mods on unidentified maps) and only sacrifice a little but of clear speed (he's not insane at that anyhow) and still mow through. " Unless they made most/all of their characters private, I *can* just import them using PoB. I don't even need their direct knowledge, though I might have to send a temporary friend request to get their account name. " In all fairness, Rufalius was my first build, and I NEVER said he was any good; I've just never figured out the direction I really wanted to go with him. (I got a shopping list of now-legacy uniques, and opted not to invest in him) I'm willing to bet he has the slowest clear of any level 91 in the game. " I suppose you CAN cap it, but it's really hard; even with a pair of legacy Ungils' (which does WONDERS for your DPS, heh) it requires going to extremes, and still requires any legacy Rumi's to do it. (at which point there's almost no primary defense, and health bonus is less than 150%... And let's not forget having nothing for dodge beyond the base Acro+PA) That's part of the point I was making: it just plain isn't viable to invest in both block and dodge. I MIGHT consider simply shrugging off usable block and going as a one-hander+shield, (such as for stacking evasion) but at which point a penalized shield provides very, VERY minimal bonus, that both is tiny on paper, and would be impossible to notice in-game; any "feeling" of it would be more or less entirely placebo. As a result, I'll repeat what I said; it's sorta like how old Ondar's Guile was, in that it's an outright reward for a specific build. (in this case, primarily bow-users) I'd like to see it ACTUALLY become a real option, such as ES users, or perhaps real block users, hence why the suggested changes: make the ES penalty instead be a "100% slower start of ES recharge" and the block penalty be "-15% to maximum block and spell block chance." Rufalius, hybrid Aura/Arc/Mana Guardian | Hemorae, TS Raider | Wuru, Ele Hit Wand Trickster
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Oh my scumbag god people and their long paragraphs about this acrobatics bullshit. Full of cringe. Make it stop please don't waste your time for explaining some idiotic mechanics to somebody and just burn them all.
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" "ranged not needing to evade much anyway" have you ever played highlevel breaches with not best in slot gear? maybe even SSF? you will get hit ALOT ofc you can deal with it in some ways but often you have to run out off the breach range at some point. | |
"no, this is a bad generalization, sorry if I want to do full dex defenses and 2H melee [not staff, but even for staff we have to travel to templar...so not full dex]...well I cant really use block can I ? if I want to be one of the 8 subclasses on right side of the tree who isnt a gladiator and maybe dual wield, how can I just get block ? what you're really saying is that I can go gladiator 1h and get block. thats a far smaller subset than your 'full dex defences and melee' subset. far, far smaller. and since we're on this topic, I think its inherently wrong that when people think block they have to make a gladiator. this isnt the case with any other defense in the game. " that...doesnt make sense. first, full dex defences = evading attacks, literally. second, when youre getting overwhelmed (ie, breaches), your entropy will have you get hit a lot times. this is where dodge comes in through. third, depends on what you mean by full dex defences and how much evasion. evasion doesnt counter spells, dodge does. evasion has hard diminishing returns, dodge doesnt really " I dont see antisynergy. MoM + acro is amazing and has been great since like pre talisman league. if you have 20k armour somehow, 10k armour is still pretty nice to have. if you have endurance charges, guess what, they still mitigate % phys damage. in 3.0, theres ton of % phys mitigation through pantheon and some other things like new bandit rewards. not to mention the usual ToH, basalt, endurance charges, coil, etc etc Last edited by grepman on Jul 24, 2017, 1:23:56 PM
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" Sid also acted like I was supposed to be impressed by him able to look at my (intentionally public) character list, indicating that he thought that, somehow, such a tactic would be beyond me. " Well, in practice, that's how it's gone for Hemorae. Stacking double avoidance gets me into the 6-figure eHP range, and yes, it's something that bears out in playing. I do often run into packs because it gets a cleaner angle for TS, and gets a quicker clear. " That's why I spoke of a PoB code, since those remain forever even after you swap out gear. Linking it in-forum apparently isn't so great, since apparently unlike in-game, I can't CTRL+C it. " You're actually missing my point: I'm not arguing that 5 points for PA is a waste. (however, it's still kind of an annoying thing, since while it's 66.67% more eHP vs. attacks, it's VERY inconsistently RNG-reliant when just taken on its own) What I'm saying instead is that for a build with block, those 5 points would make a bigger difference reinvested into MORE block. Y'know, in a lot of those cases those 5 points would mean the difference between being capped and not, and in THAT case, one's survivability is better served by capping block, rather than putting into Acrobatics and taking the hit to block. There's no good justification for a character who's already partly invested into block to throw that away, taking Acrobatics. They should either go full block, or remove their block investment and shift it all into dodge. " Yes, just not with mirrored gear like you have. If the question were simply based upon whether one could do great with mirrored gear, technically every single build in the game is "great." Instead, when you're limited to the single-digit-exalts-or-less build price, EV+ES suffers rather badly, because you either don't have enough ES to survive heavier hits, or you have low enough EV you're still getting constantly hit, or both. It's SORT of a bit of a similar plight with armour+ES; (at least, post-1.1) you can build a rather powerful armour CI build with a high cost of gear, but others don't work out so great. The only hybrid build that currently can work well without spending an obscene amount on gearing is AR+EV, and then only because you can take IR for a cheap 100k armour without either flasking or being a Juggernaut. Rufalius, hybrid Aura/Arc/Mana Guardian | Hemorae, TS Raider | Wuru, Ele Hit Wand Trickster
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100k AR? just please tell me - WHY would anyone get more than 20k AR? even that is bit excessive. all the resources poured into 80k AR could be spent so much wiser.. into like EV? so porcupines with added ele in +crit maps do not MURDER you etc
the rest reminds me of 'beliefs' vs 'knowledge' situation. 'hey, you see, i did that, it works' vs 'but i BELIEVE it doesnt so it doesnt' btw CI + EV can be gotten as easily as Grace aura + hybrid ES/EV boots/gloves + (if you really want it) hybrid ES/EV shield with +%increased defences from shield nodes. it means 1 aura and bit more creative gearing. steep price? maybe. but it is well worth it ES + EV on a life character (4.4k life, 5k ES, 49% chance to evade + block) is just absurdly strong. on a MELEE character. without leech. but i know i know, it sucks | |
" right, but you can see that however much damage the qotf setup is tanking, that coil setup could probably tank more right? Its got somewhere around a 72% damage reduction on incoming physical hits (even with a new coil+toh) that the qotf doesnt have, and it has nearly 7k hp vs nearly 4k hp on the qoft. So if the qotf takes 4k damage it dies, that same amount of damage does something like 1120 to the coil char after mitigation, 1120 x 6 = 6720, which is still not enough to kill the coil char. Theres a big difference between getting 1 shot and tanking 6 hits of the same size. Im not saying the qotf doesnt work, Im sure it works just fine and blasts through content no problems. But the raw numbers of having enfeeble, arctic armour, lightning coil, taste of hate, basalt flask, endurance charges, fortify and blind that the qotf doesnt have, along with 3k more life to absorb damage puts its practical survivability much higher. " Oh its not as bad as all that. I dont have mirrored gear, I got a mirrored dagger and a sword, the rest of it is all league gears, very good league gears, but its not perfect mirrored items. The big players in this game have way better gear than I do, and much higher character levels. Im comparing builds with the same levels of gear, and es+ev is not just great like every other combo, its significantly better than most of them, thats the thing. Ar+es is absolute trash in comparison, trust me I have extensively played with those sort of builds too. If you have an aegis shield then yeah, its good, its up there, without that unique its pretty terrible compared to es+ev. if youre interested ill tell you how im putting ev+es together.
Spoiler
the current stats on that ek witch are not what they were in that vid, shes currently at Energy Shield: 15,750 Evasion: 13,440 when properly specced and geared. Now thats with a 740 es chest u can pick up for 40 chaos in a league right now, which is pretty far from the 1k es chests up for mirroring on standard for whatever, 350 exalts. The shield is fairly high end, 1288 ev + 415 es, but thats really the only expensive piece of the puzzle and as ull see you can pick up about 700 ev on belt and boots for cheap that I dont have, which means you need 700 less on the shield to get similar stats. The boots only have 77es for example. The hat is a vertex, thats a 15c item in a league. Its not actually that gear dependent, its not like it uses a 450+ hubris that will cost 10ex, the vertex is relatively cheap and is key to these setups due to the +1 socketed gems. The basic template for es+ev that Im working with uses a leveled enlighten in a vertex for the +1 gem, then you need influence and charisma aura clusters, sometimes youll also need the 4% in leadership. This allows you to run grace, discipline and hatred, doesnt have to be hatred though can be any 50% damage aura. The vertex is over 700ev, this along with grace gives an awful lot of base evasion, you want a good chunk on the shield then ur good to go. With gloves you look out for a specific combo of flat Es + %ev+es on gloves with a free prefix so u can craft the 50-80 flat ev roll. Theyre often rly cheap I dont think I paid for than about 20c for any of those, u can get em as cheap as 5c if u look around. Like I said I have 77 es on boots, u can get voidwalkers rly cheap, 4 or 5 chaos... 460 evasion, u wouldnt even need ev on the gloves if u had them to reach the totals, or maybe u just drop 400 ev off the shield and get that cheaper. Im using doryanis belt, u could use ascent from flesh belt for another 300 evasion + 80+ es Im not getting, 4 chaos item. Its not really that expensive, in fact id say its the same or even cheaper than ur standard ci build out there. If you want a +1 gems chest, skyforths, all the silly bits then sure thats expensive but thats not whats giving u the defenses. Its not so much budget, its more about time leveling enlightens and getting the pieces of the puzzle right. I wouldnt bother taking iron reflexes if you got a lot of evasion and armour. Just stack heavy armour on your main bits of gear, run grace for evasion and maybe get some evasion from gloves and boots. Just leave it as evasion, itll do way more for you than taking iron reflexes. If you rly want to get the best out of evasion as a layer I would highly recommend cwdt enfeeble. Just a lvl1 cwdt and a lvl5 enfeeble are awesome, virtually any incoming damage is going to curse the monster. Not only is it a 23% damage reduction, its 22% less accuracy on the monster which greatly increases chance to evade, its also a 23% reduced crit multiplier on the enemy. Somewhere around 14k evasion gives a 50% chance to evade the highest tiers of mobs, as u go beyond that its got rly harsh diminishing returns. Adding enfeeble and, if u can, blind to that amount of evasion makes it extremely effective. A blinded enemy vs 14k evasion, you have a 75% chance to evade it. To put that in perspective you need around 60k evasion to match that without the blind, and this is not counting enfeeble on top of that. When you see me using cwdt enfeeble and then blinding enemies thats making the ~14k evasion I have on the coil and the ci characters act like more than 60k evasion. So its one thing to run a pure ev char with 30k evasion that can pot up to 60k ev with 4-5k life. Its another to be getting similar chance to evade from a char with 7k life and an additional 7 layers of damage reduction, or a char who also has 15k energy shield with recharge modifiers and vile bastion, or a char who also has 25k-30k armour with 7 endurance charges. You might look at these things as a mishmash of defenses but I think if youd played them extensively youd see them in a different light. I wouldnt stack block, armour or energy shield with acrobatics either personally, I hate the idea of investing into a penalty wall like that. Im happy to use it on a char with a shield though. Im not against the idea of acro reducing max block rather than block, Id be fine with that. I dont think it needs it but yeah, the case could be made that the sort of people who get a buff from that are mainly melee and theres no harm in giving melee little bonuses. Last edited by Snorkle_uk on Jul 24, 2017, 8:19:42 PM
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