Improve Acrobatics

Oh Noes, someone has made a generalisation!
Quick attack it with exceptions to show that we don't know what a generalisation means, while completely missing the point!

And some more serious responses...

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ciel289 wrote:

"ranged not needing to evade much anyway" have you ever played highlevel breaches with not best in slot gear? maybe even SSF?
you will get hit ALOT ofc you can deal with it in some ways but often you have to run out off the breach range at some point.

That is exactly what I have done recently, and I can confirm that even with Acrobatics, standing inside the Breach is suicide compared with standing outside and shooting in.

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grepman wrote:

if I want to do full dex defenses and 2H melee [not staff, but even for staff we have to travel to templar...so not full dex]...well I cant really use block can I ?

There also isn't a full dex 2H melee weapon, so that seems a little contrived.

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grepman wrote:

what you're really saying is that I can go gladiator 1h and get block. thats a far smaller subset than your 'full dex defences and melee' subset. far, far smaller.

What I'm actually saying is that the dex melee weapon choices are all one handed, so you can either use a shield or dual for block, with one exception.

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grepman wrote:

and since we're on this topic, I think its inherently wrong that when people think block they have to make a gladiator. this isnt the case with any other defense in the game.

This is quite funny since you keep saying that gladiator is the only way to have block... I haven't mentioned it at all.

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grepman wrote:

that...doesnt make sense. first, full dex defences = evading attacks, literally. second, when youre getting overwhelmed (ie, breaches), your entropy will have you get hit a lot times. this is where dodge comes in through. third, depends on what you mean by full dex defences and how much evasion. evasion doesnt counter spells, dodge does. evasion has hard diminishing returns, dodge doesnt really.

Your first point doesn't mean much. Your second point suggests you missed me saying it was a backup. I never said it was a bad backup or a bad choice.

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grepman wrote:

I dont see antisynergy. MoM + acro is amazing and has been great since like pre talisman league.

if you have 20k armour somehow, 10k armour is still pretty nice to have.

if you have endurance charges, guess what, they still mitigate % phys damage.

in 3.0, theres ton of % phys mitigation through pantheon and some other things like new bandit rewards. not to mention the usual ToH, basalt, endurance charges, coil, etc etc

I wouldn't count MoM as a dex defense, given its int synergy. Its also a special case.
If -50% armour/ES isn't an antisynergy, I'd love to know what you think an antisynergy is.
Also, I never said anything about phys mitigation, so wtf?


My general point was actually that Acrobatics is basically a Block clone, and that most builds in need of such a mechanic on that side of the passives web can get the original Block. Yes it can be used as an alternative or even in addition to Block, or be used by builds that can't get Block, but what is it actually for? Is everyone supposed to have a Blocklike mechanic? Is it some sort of left over from before dual wielding could get Block? Is it meant to be an Archer Block, but just happens to be just as useful to everyone?

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HousePet wrote:

Oh Noes, someone has made a generalisation!
Quick attack it with exceptions to show that we don't know what a generalisation means, while completely missing the point!

if you make a generalization and it has a lot of exceptions, its best to not make a generalization to start with. you're only making the point worse.

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grepman wrote:

if I want to do full dex defenses and 2H melee [not staff, but even for staff we have to travel to templar...so not full dex]...well I cant really use block can I ?

There also isn't a full dex 2H melee weapon, so that seems a little contrived.

what the fuck is a full dex 2h weapon and where did we talk about it ?
how is it contrived when I made builds as a duelist wielding 2H swords ?

this makes little to no sense.

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grepman wrote:

what you're really saying is that I can go gladiator 1h and get block. thats a far smaller subset than your 'full dex defences and melee' subset. far, far smaller.

What I'm actually saying is that the dex melee weapon choices are all one handed, so you can either use a shield or dual for block, with one exception.

SHOW ME A NON-GLADIATOR WITH MAX BLOCK. I wrote in all caps so you actually understand my point.

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grepman wrote:

and since we're on this topic, I think its inherently wrong that when people think block they have to make a gladiator. this isnt the case with any other defense in the game.

This is quite funny since you keep saying that gladiator is the only way to have block... I haven't mentioned it at all.

how is it funny ? this is the same point I made...its inherently wrong that in order to utilize block as your defense you pretty much have to be a gladiator (aside from necro and stupid expensive breach jewels)

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I wouldn't count MoM as a dex defense, given its int synergy. Its also a special case.
If -50% armour/ES isn't an antisynergy, I'd love to know what you think an antisynergy is.

there is no such thing as 'dex defense' and no such thing as 'full dex' weapons. there are weapons that have high dex requirements but that doesnt mean you cant use them in other sides of the tree, neither does it say anywhere that a spellcaster cant use dodge/acro or block.

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My general point was actually that Acrobatics is basically a Block clone, and that most builds in need of such a mechanic on that side of the passives web can get the original Block.

count how many nodes you need to get block/spell block to the same level as acro+phase acro. please do.
again, your point ONLY applies to gladiators. show me a build on the bottom side of the tree 1)that isnt gladiator 2)having comparable block. go ahead and show me

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Yes it can be used as an alternative or even in addition to Block, or be used by builds that can't get Block, but what is it actually for? Is everyone supposed to have a Blocklike mechanic? Is it some sort of left over from before dual wielding could get Block? Is it meant to be an Archer Block, but just happens to be just as useful to everyone?

block counts as a hit, dodge doesnt. thats a pretty huge distinction there.

for example, kintsugi's main attraction is utterly wasted on a block build because you get hit on a block. block procs any 'on hit' conditions and dodge...doesnt

Okay, you are still missing the point and appear to be making contradictory arguments about specific points that aren't relevant, so whatever.

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HousePet wrote:

Okay, you are still missing the point and appear to be making contradictory arguments about specific points that aren't relevant, so whatever.

all Im asking is for you to show ONE 'dex' tree that has comparable block to dodge that ISNT a gladiator.

you asked, 'why take acro if I can take block' ?
my question was, 'show me non-gladiator who can take that much block and invests little'
you had no answer.

what are my contradictory points ?

and lol at my kintsugi answer being non-relevant.

And why do you think I had no answer, because it wasn't relevant to what I was saying... :P

The actual power of any passives has no relevance when I'm saying that their appears to be no actual reason for a third attack negation mechanic to exist.

You can change any of the numbers to make the mechanic good for anyone using it, but that will never justify the existence of a duplicated mechanic, when the original mechanic could have been adjusted instead.