The REAL problem with melee vs. ranged

johnKeys, I'm not completly agree about tankiness issue.

For example, I can tank (or even facetank in some proverbial way) most game content with my maxblock glad, only few hard-assed bosses with bad map-modes can one-shot me (or 2-shot, so to say, in quick seccession). Telegraphed mega-attacks too, but they made for this. DPS indeed mediocre vs bosses (but pretty good against trash).

So, melee tanking (to some expent - this is PoE) is possible, but reserved for few adcendancies/build disigns. Overall melee chars (without some very big defence investments and choices) - YES, petty squishy for their dangerous buisness. Spell shotgunning from bosses is greatest peril to my taste.

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le_souriceau wrote:

johnKeys, I'm not completly agree about tankiness issue.

For example, I can tank (or even facetank in some proverbial way) most game content with my maxblock glad, only few hard-assed bosses with bad map-modes can one-shot me (or 2-shot, so to say, in quick seccession). Telegraphed mega-attacks too, but they made for this. DPS indeed mediocre vs bosses (but pretty good against trash).

So, melee tanking (to some expent - this is PoE) is possible, but reserved for few adcendancies/build disigns. Overall melee chars (without some very big defence investments and choices) petty squishy for their dangerous buisness.

The only melee specialize "tanking" build are block builds with shields using gladiator, but you can do that with a unique quiver and spell characters can equip shields anyway.

Melee tanking doesn't really exist because they literally share almost the exact same mechanics as ranged. The most generic tanky ranged build is as tanky as the most tanky generic melee since the tree defenses isn't really specialized towards anything.

There are almost no items that specifically benefit melee over ranged either other then the obvious "you must be xyz to use them".

If I played a generic armor archer ranger vs generic armor melee marauder and let's say we go from left to right/left to right on the tree. You would almost have nearly exact same amount of armor/defenses/damage nodes.

"being able to do everything and anything with little restriction" is biting GGG in the butt it seems with them "everything is equal" design. But almost no differences in skill or mechanical gameplay, melee is just an animation that does damage in front of them more the nan actual playstyle.

RagnarokChu, yep, root of this balance situation lies in spells.

While most melee builds with armour/large hp pools/regen/leech/end charges and some other mechanics/layers CAN handle (tank) physical problems (wich is minor thing in grand scale), spell/spell-like abilty spam in this game is simply gives unbearable spikes of damage when you stand in melee and recieve it in da face. Boom. Dead.

That is it.

When playing with max spellbock on glad I felt all the difference.

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le_souriceau wrote:

RagnarokChu, yep, root of this balance situation lies in spells.

While most melee builds with armour/large hp pools/regen/leech/end charges and some other mechanics/layers CAN handle (tank) physical problems (wich is minor thing in grand scale), spell/spell-like abilty spam in this game is simply gives unbearable spikes of damage when you stand in melee and recieve it in da face. Boom. Dead.

That is it.

When playing with max spellbock on glad I felt all the difference.

Technically this only applies to "True melee" because most successful melee attacks barring ones with extra special traits/damage have the option of dodging projectiles/spells just like ranged.

For example with stuff like sunder, earthquake, lacerate ect. While stuff like bladeflurry is highest damage within it's class that includes aoe, and stuff like frostblades is a long melee attack with special projectile mechanics.

So if your melee attack doesn't give you the option to dodge attacks or has a good trait within in, it's going to suck. Even more so when the enhanced autoattacks type-gems special traits can be added into other attacks with items/skill gems/ect. Also they basically cannibalize each other for the exact same role in a build.

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le_souriceau wrote:

physical problems (wich is minor thing in grand scale)

This is just NOT true, you are probably just repeating what you have seen in these forums, but the physical damage part of dangerous situations in general in endgame is everything but minor.

I meant that phys damage is far lesser concern (generaly) for melee chars, who aleady have more or less adequate mitigation. Even if it "mega-noob build" there is always a least some armor, endurance charges, blocks and so on. This all may be not so effectivly build, but nevertheless. In contrary, to survive nuking ranged-aoe-nova elem atacks is far harder as close range character.

Well, I can make mistakes here, indeed. Not pretending that I know game as god, just share opinion formed from my own bitter experience.

The thing is, the physical damage threats come from everywhere, those AOE nukes that you are talking about are things that you can see coming, and can often be avoided manually ( and good players are often supposed to avoid them ).
But yeah, close range characters do have a harder time dodging some of them, however it looks like GGG keeps adding small arenas to put ranges outside of their comfort zone, at least that's what it looks like.

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Fruz wrote:

The thing is, the physical damage threats come from everywhere, those AOE nukes that you are talking about are things that you can see coming, and can often be avoided manually ( and good players are often supposed to avoid them ).
But yeah, close range characters do have a harder time dodging some of them, however it looks like GGG keeps adding small arenas to put ranges outside of their comfort zone, at least that's what it looks like.

GL avoiding them in a Breach, or VS multiessence monster, or Haast/Abaxoth in bad map, etc.

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le_souriceau wrote:

RagnarokChu, yep, root of this balance situation lies in spells.

While most melee builds with armour/large hp pools/regen/leech/end charges and some other mechanics/layers CAN handle (tank) physical problems (wich is minor thing in grand scale), spell/spell-like abilty spam in this game is simply gives unbearable spikes of damage when you stand in melee and recieve it in da face. Boom. Dead.

That is it.

When playing with max spellbock on glad I felt all the difference.

Yes it helps, but like I have said many times you can also play max spellblock on a ranged build.

Any skill that can work with a shield, and uses amulet / boots, and an Ascendancy - can go max spell block.

Builds going to Witch area (CI, spell, wand builds) can get to max spell block with Witch's shield nodes and Alchemist nodes.

There are even CI bow characters that are using block LOL

Fortify, AR, EV, ECs, Blind, Enfeeble, Lightning Coil, Kaom's, Vaal Grace, yada yada yada - ranged can do too.

On top of all that, melee player still has worse damage?

Only at Grinding Gear Games, this makes sense.


Block has had so many changes in this game, every year I swear there is some nerf to block, and STILL we have problems. But don't worry, I'm sure GGG will come to understand the real issue any day now.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

The thing is, the physical damage threats come from everywhere, those AOE nukes that you are talking about are things that you can see coming, and can often be avoided manually ( and good players are often supposed to avoid them ).
But yeah, close range characters do have a harder time dodging some of them, however it looks like GGG keeps adding small arenas to put ranges outside of their comfort zone, at least that's what it looks like.

GL avoiding them in a Breach, or VS multiessence monster, or Haast/Abaxoth in bad map, etc.

I wished that GGG didn't go all crazy about monster density and graphical effects.

But yes, you can easily Tzeosh's fmalblast in a breach for example, hast isn't a big threat usually, Bameth can be high risk if he instant vaal dd ( I have yet to die to it though, but I believe some did without much of a reaction time ), but if he does not you can isntantly back off to a place with less corpses, and Abaxoth .... well those flameblasts are obvious enough to be clearly seen.

Bearers well ... if you lag because of too many effects, that's deadly, we can somewhat blame the monster density that went over the roof, but entering a breach in high maps without being able to clear it quickly enough + letting a pack of bearers alive in the range of the breach is the player's fault ( and even though it can be seen, it's harder but it can be seen ).


Multi essence .... nonsense, you can pick up your fight anytime you want, and clear the area before you trigger it, if you think that it will be dangerous.

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Block has had so many changes in this game, every year I swear there is some nerf to block, and STILL we have problems. But don't worry, I'm sure GGG will come to understand the real issue any day now.

Well, Rumi + Necro, those things .... are clearly messing up the balance.
Rumi has been nerfed, but it's still freaking strong, too strong still.