I actually agree with your thoughts on the differences between the gem options, but I wanted to point something out that I think you are wrong on, and that is the leech difference.
You are not actually losing leech even though it may say so in Path of building. Due to the leech rate cap, we can only leech 20% of our ES per hit. So if you're at 10k ES then you can only leech 2k es per hit. The good news is our attack speed is so insane that we can get in 8+ hits per second so our es goes to full in what seems like instantly. But I can guarantee you are doing enough damage to reach that leech cap with either setup.
I actually agree with your thoughts on the differences between the gem options, but I wanted to point something out that I think you are wrong on, and that is the leech difference.
You are not actually losing leech even though it may say so in Path of building. Due to the leech rate cap, we can only leech 20% of our ES per hit. So if you're at 10k ES then you can only leech 2k es per hit. The good news is our attack speed is so insane that we can get in 8+ hits per second so our es goes to full in what seems like instantly. But I can guarantee you are doing enough damage to reach that leech cap with either setup.
Thank you. I did not know that about leech. I appreciate the info.
Edit: Also I looked at you build and its a very nice version. One thing you can try though, is to change true strike for throat seeker. You lose some damage at no power charges, but at full power charges its more damage. Something to look at.
Last edited by kushorange on Apr 21, 2017, 12:40:15 PM
Yeah but its Extra chaos damage/less elemental damage vs Extra physical on crit. The videos you did and the GIF you posted at the top are with the crit multi gem from last season show crit multi is insanely fast already.
Shaper already dies in maybe 30 sec each phase (kinda depends on his rotation) with crit multi.
Yes wither totem does help a lot, and it helps a lot more with void manipulation. But like you said you don't even use the wither totem during normal gameplay and shaper already dies extemely fast with crit multi.
So the overall the benefits of crit multi outweigh the benefits of void manipulation, In my opinion of course.
Your reasoning makes no sense, did you actually test it? The Void gem in all scenarios gives you more damage (on paper and in practice, even if you completely remove the wither totem), you haven't shown any evidence where crit multi "outweighs the benefits of void manipulation." I'm speaking from experience with testing both setups against normal mobs and bosses, as well as calculating it manually (on top of that showing it in Path of Building). So, I ask you, why do you want to do less damage with crit multi? If you want to use crit-multi that's fine, I just don't see any reason to use it besides the difficulty of getting the off-colors.
Yes I have tested it. Had two regalia and swapped them to try it + path of building. You lose a lot of tooltip dps. Especially with taste of hate and HOA active. You loose a lot of leech. Only a few things died faster. Shaper was one, but shaper is already easy peasy and is easy to keep wither totem alive.
Anything that can't be posioned dies much slower.
"the benefits" are the things I mentioned. The easier colors, the higher upfront dps, the better leech, doesn't ruin HOA/taste of hate/etc, crit multi is huge bonus damage.
But it all depends on how you wanna do the build though.
If you run an Abyssus, then I'd recommend Arctic Armour to null some of the increased damage taken. In that case, since you aren't running HOA then Void Mani might be better fit.
Last league since legacy voidheart wasn't available, it was even better to run a 2nd steel ring instead of a voidheart. In that case it was 100% better to run the crit multi.
But each person's build will be different though, and its up to yourself to figure out what works best for your items and play-style.
Yes, you can do your build as you wish. However, I 100% disagree with your statement that crit multi is more damage. It is not, not with the setup presented in the guide (with actual videos and gear selection in path of building). Void Manipulation (if your build is min/maxed properly) will give you much more damage. Please point out these poison immune mobs that are giving you this much trouble (i haven't found any). The toughest one that I can think of are the poison immune guardians, but they die in a second. So for 99.99% of the rest of the game, poison is unaffected.
Either you are not min/maxing correctly with your build (i.e. not using the correct flasks, gear, tree nodes) or some other variable is off that's not being revealed by you. We don't know your exact setup (gear, flasks, tree...etc), perhaps if you try to show what exactly you are using we can find out why you are not getting the numbers you should be.
Leech is not a problem at all, not sure how you are losing leech. It does not make any sense at all.
Don't forget that across the board all mobs have much less chaos resistance than all the other resistances. So by default the initial chaos hit will do more damage than the other types.
Twitch Stream:
www.twitch.tv/mindscoped
Last edited by unchainedlive on Apr 21, 2017, 1:32:51 PM
Yes, you can do your build as you wish. However, I 100% disagree with your statement that crit multi is more damage. It is not, not with the setup presented in the guide (with actual videos and gear selection in path of building). Void Manipulation (if your build is min/maxed properly) will give you much more damage. Please point out these poison immune mobs that are giving you this much trouble (i haven't found any). The toughest one that I can think of are the poison immune guardians, but they die in a second. So for 99.99% of the rest of the game, poison is unaffected.
Either you are not min/maxing correctly with your build (i.e. not using the correct flasks, gear, tree nodes) or some other variable is off that's not being revealed by you. We don't know your exact setup (gear, flasks, tree...etc), perhaps if you try to show what exactly you are using we can find out why you are not getting the numbers you should be.
Leech is not a problem at all, not sure how you are losing leech. It does not make any sense at all.
Don't forget that across the board all mobs have much less chaos resistance than all the other resistances. So by default the initial chaos hit will do more damage than the other types.
My profile is public with both my scourge characters being available to see. Why isn't yours?
Almost all your videos are the same ones from last league which is when you were using/recommending the crit multi gem. Where are the videos with the void gem? You even call it "world's fastest shaper kill" so wouldn't there be a new "world's fastest shaper kill" with the new void gem? I'm not being serious here, but my point still stands.
Yes, Poison Immune guardians are what I was referring. Besides shaper/atziri what other bosses can we use to demonstrate dps?
Most people aren't in standard with mirror items. They are playing league with the items they can trade and grind for. So yes, having an easier time with poison immune guardians is more important than killing shaper 5 sec faster - in my opinion.
I already said why I believe crit multi is the better choice, but there is certainly merits to the void manipulation gem and setups where it could be better. This is just my experience though.
Yes, you can do your build as you wish. However, I 100% disagree with your statement that crit multi is more damage. It is not, not with the setup presented in the guide (with actual videos and gear selection in path of building). Void Manipulation (if your build is min/maxed properly) will give you much more damage. Please point out these poison immune mobs that are giving you this much trouble (i haven't found any). The toughest one that I can think of are the poison immune guardians, but they die in a second. So for 99.99% of the rest of the game, poison is unaffected.
Either you are not min/maxing correctly with your build (i.e. not using the correct flasks, gear, tree nodes) or some other variable is off that's not being revealed by you. We don't know your exact setup (gear, flasks, tree...etc), perhaps if you try to show what exactly you are using we can find out why you are not getting the numbers you should be.
Leech is not a problem at all, not sure how you are losing leech. It does not make any sense at all.
Don't forget that across the board all mobs have much less chaos resistance than all the other resistances. So by default the initial chaos hit will do more damage than the other types.
My profile is public with both my scourge characters being available to see. Why isn't yours?
Almost all your videos are the same ones from last league which is when you were using/recommending the crit multi gem. Where are the videos with the void gem? You even call it "world's fastest shaper kill" so wouldn't there be a new "world's fastest shaper kill" with the new void gem? I'm not being serious here, but my point still stands.
Yes, Poison Immune guardians are what I was referring. Besides shaper/atziri what other bosses can we use to demonstrate dps?
Most people aren't in standard with mirror items. They are playing league with the items they can trade and grind for. So yes, having an easier time with poison immune guardians is more important than killing shaper 5 sec faster - in my opinion.
I already said why I believe crit multi is the better choice, but there is certainly merits to the void manipulation gem and setups where it could be better. This is just my experience though.
First of all, I don't have time to post a brand new video for every fight. I am currently playing Legacy league (and Hardcore) on my stream, the build has been re-crafted and re-tested on live stream. The tree and the gear/links have been updated accordingly for 2.6, which is what you should be following. However, these statements have nothing to do with your original issue/subject so let's stick to that.
Only 2 of the guardians are poison immune, the other 2 are not. So your point does not stand. Literally for the rest of the 99.99% of the game you wish to do less damage? It does not make logical sense. I took a glimpse at your character, and you are not even using a void heart or the optimal damage flasks (thus you are not min/maxing properly according to the guide). You are also safer from reflect with the void gem.
Did you watch the Path of Building video that I've posted in the guide (it's done for legacy league)? It literally shows you all the gear that's used. Watch the video carefully (you can even skip to the end to see everything). Your build is different compared to what's posted in the guide, which is fine, but please do not generalize that crit multi is better than void manipulation.
Again, you can play your build however you like, but please do not make false statements that do not apply to this guide. You can make your own version of the build and post a guide about it where you do not wish to use poison stacks. My build is min/maxed for optimal total damage output that utilizes all sources of damage.
Twitch Stream:
www.twitch.tv/mindscoped
Last edited by unchainedlive on Apr 21, 2017, 2:19:07 PM
Can someone explain to me how Void Manipulation is more dps than lets say crit multi?
Since u even lose some elemental damage from hatred and taste of hate?
Or is the damage increase to poison simply greater than overall damage with crit multi?
Explaination is much appreciated.
There is more "back-end" damage with Void Manipulation with the poison. It is dependent on wither totem and getting enough poison stacks though.
In my opinion using crit multi is far better for the reasons you said and others. Wither totem is not reliable enough.
A lot of people only look at the path of building numbers but don't factor in actual real life variables.
Don't forget about the chaos damage that's boosted by void on the initial hit(s) (extra chaos damage added from flasks and the tree). Its effectiveness can be seen against bosses, and wither is definitely a huge damage boost. For mapping I don't usually even use wither as the damage is high enough to one shot everything. You can test this out against Shaper, and you'll see the difference (you'll kill him much faster with a void gem than a crit multi). As you said, you'll have to factor in everything not just poison like in your example and I highly suggest testing the scenarios out (if properly min/maxed).
Thanks for the replies.
Guess i will just test it out and decide for myself which feels better, though we can all agree that void manipulation is better for shaper farming.
gggrrb on a Regalia. Ya....guess I won't be playing Blade Flurry. I aint paying 11:1 for chromes either. Guess Im done for the league. I sold my shavs too for a Regalia. What a mistake.
Last edited by DamageIncorporated on Apr 21, 2017, 4:37:44 PM
gggrrb on a Regalia. Ya....guess I won't be playing Blade Flurry. I aint paying 11:1 for chromes either. Guess Im done for the league. I sold my shavs too for a Regalia. What a mistake.
Hey Damage! I remember you from the LLF RF guide thread, whats up!
You can totally do this build with 2-2-2 regalia and it's not that hard to get 2-2-2
Then way down the road if you wanna try to min-max as much as possible and have the currency you can switch to 3G2R1B later.
Last edited by whoismiked on Apr 21, 2017, 7:39:10 PM
