Is fork and chain overshadowed by pierce?
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If it wasn't so easy to make up the extra pierce chance from the tree, curses or gear, then 50% chance to pierce might be a genuine choice vs +2 chain (in fact, it would probably be a bit weak).
That's the reason why the support gem itself has a damage multiplier - because it only gives 50% chance to pierce, and there are many other sources of this as well. Pierce Support doesn't have the multiplier to compete with Chain Support, it has the multiplier to compete with other sources of pierce. Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756 |
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The fact remains, however, that even Chaining builds hate using the Chain gem and look for any way they can to avoid doing so - up to and including turning themselves into Pierce builds, instead.
Look at it this way - how much support is there on the tree for chaining? Or forking, for that matter? You can get 50% pierce chance innate on the base tree - is there any way, outside Ascendancies, to get chains or forks? The Pierce gem has a More multiplier to compete with other sources of Pierce, all right then. The problem is that this very same 'More' multiplier, on top of the sheer existence of Drillneck, typically invalidates anything but Pierce as an option for the highest-end builds. Chain has no way to get free 100% increased damage and a 'More' modifier for the sheer act of chaining. Fork has no way to be relevant whatsoever. But, as you pointed out...Pierce has numerous sources, far and away the best damage boosts, and is the only embiggening method (outside straight-up increased AoE) with native support in the tree. As an avid lover of Arc, Frost Blades (w/Chain), and all skills that go bouncy, I feel as if this might mebbe be problematical to some extent. | |
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Yes, the pierce mechanic is much stronger than the chain mechanic. I think the pierce gem is fine though; reducing the more multiplier won't make the pierce mechanic an inferior choice, just the gem itself.
If anything needs tweaking it is the chain mechanic. Here is my suggestion: Chain should enable you to multi-hit the same monster with different projectiles from the same skill use. (eg: if you hit two different monsters with two different projectiles from the same skill use, they should then each be able to chain to the other monster.) That way it would actually be a superior choice to the pierce mechanic in a number of situations (eg: small groups - chain is better; large groups, pierce is better). As it is now, Chain's only point is to help spread out your damage to multiple monsters. And the Pierce mechanic is just better for doing that, because of how packs spawn and interact with you in PoE. Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756 Last edited by dudiobugtron on Oct 19, 2016, 5:05:49 PM
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"That's the reason why the support gem itself has a damage multiplier - because it only gives 50% chance to pierce, and there are many other sources of this as well."
Yeah man, there's so many sources of Pierce... 40/50% on the tree 10% on a Quiver 15% on a meh Jewel 50% on a Curse rarely seen Powerful Precision, which is usually combined with the Pierce Support and Drillneck anyways because a random chance of not-Piercing at even medium range is bad. You're almost always looking at the Pierce support to hit 100% reliably. And even with Powerful Precision and Piercing Shots, odds are you'd be using the Pierce Support because it grants unconditional More Damage, on top of making PP a plain old 100% Increased Crit Chance bonus. Without the Damage bonus, one could choose to run a build with PP + PS, and suffer the small chance of not-piercing at long range. However, as it stands, that's often just sub-optimal. I'm also pretty sure Chain can bounce-back already? :/ Last edited by Vipermagi on Oct 19, 2016, 5:45:16 PM
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" While GGG gave Pierce a more damage modifier, they nerfed the pierce chance from 70 something percent to the fixed 50 percent it is now. If GGG ever decides to remove the more damage modifier, they should buff up the pierce chance again or have it be 100% pierce. To be honest, I was never drawn to chain back in the days since it was nerfed heavily (chain from 3 to 2 on top of that) at open beta launch, and it did not help with such high mana multiplier. Of course, GGG reduced the mana multiplier down twice, but the penalty still remains. I still liked pierce a lot more than chain even before the big buff. Fork is shitty, but so is chain unless you use it with Split Arrow or lightning arrow (this skill was broken back in the days with the whole kaom's heart + wake of destruction + thunderfist setup) then it is insane with pack clearing. Of course, you would not use that setup on a boss though. Sometimes you can take the game out of the garage but you can't take the garage out of the game. - raics, 06.08.2016 Last edited by JohnNamikaze on Oct 19, 2016, 5:50:57 PM
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"If GGG ever decides to remove the more damage modifier, they should buff up the pierce chance again or have it be 100% pierce."
That's fair, unlike the More Damage. "I still liked pierce a lot more than chain even before the big buff." Exactly my point. It was perfectly viable without that stupid More Damage bonus. Last edited by Vipermagi on Oct 19, 2016, 5:52:59 PM
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Pierce needs to go back to how it was in 2.1, no more damage modifer and higher pierce chance.
Chain needs a big buff, not sure how much though. Fork needs................help. This is pretty much the summary of my thought on the approach of these three support gems. Sometimes you can take the game out of the garage but you can't take the garage out of the game. - raics, 06.08.2016 Last edited by JohnNamikaze on Oct 19, 2016, 6:00:28 PM
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" The curse would see more use if the support gem wasn't so good :P And the Jewel is only 'meh' because you can't stack them, so it's basically only 10% pierce chance if you are trying for 100%. PS: There is also the pierce chance from scion Deadeye node, Essence of Misery, and a corrupted weapon implicit. Infractem also gives 100% pierce chance, and there are a number of 'always pierce' skills. (Also there is slivertongue, and some talismans, but they don't really count.) " I was too. I even posted it in this thread saying that: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1705459/page/4 But I found out I was wrong. I even tested it in game to check, and they are right. Excepting things like TS or multiple traps, which can 'shotgun', projectile can't chain to a target that has already been hit by a projectile in the same 'wave'. The Chain mechanic currently is just a weaker version of pierce in most situations. Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756 Last edited by dudiobugtron on Oct 19, 2016, 6:13:58 PM
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" There's also the new Voidwalker boots from the Shaper - "Projectiles Pierce while you have Phasing". I'm using those on a riff of Insobyr's Barrage BotW guy built on Raider instead of Deadeye, with Quartz Infusion for perma-Phasing on Frenzy. It's pretty slick, and saves me both a gem (which means Poison, since I can't afford a linked Cospri's Will for any build, let alone this one) and a bunch of tree nodes. EXCEPT THE GEM IS STILL NEARLY MANDATORY BECAUSE OF THE 'MORE' MODIFIER. Ugh. T'hell with the Pierce gem. | |
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Fork is just bad.
When you have massive overkill damage, Chain should be better than Pierce, at least I would think so. Thanks to its ability to clear more packs and find standalone monsters regardless of the direction the skill is fired in, thus saving skill uses. |
