Lab is [Removed by Support]- some answers and feedback

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Nykken wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Nykken wrote:

What part of it is different? I assume you mean the traps.
To me, traps don't seem very different from dodging telegraphed spells from bosses. You don't facetank a smash or something like Piety's spin and you aren't supposed to facetank a circular saw.

Yes, for many people trap game play is significantly different from arpg style play. Note that a few traps do not make trap gameplay. When you have screens of nothing but traps then that is trap gameplay. If the focus is on killing monsters then it is arpg gameplay. So for example, the traps in the third encounter with Izaro does not change it to trap gameplay. Instead it is a fun arpg encounter.

But it's exactly the same as dodging a boss attack. You see a telegraph, you click on a safe location, you don't take the damage.

The June bugs have been told many many times I'm afraid, they are still going in a straigth line.
They also seem to think that every other bug have the same behaviour, as they do not bother to look on the sides.

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Pyrokar wrote:

The other analogy is funny because it is true, while this one is a blatant lie!

00ps, Pyrokar is not laughing anymore ....

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Nykken wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Nykken wrote:

But it's exactly the same as dodging a boss attack. You see a telegraph, you click on a safe location, you don't take the damage.

Perhaps for you but trap gameplay is boring, irritating, tedious and not at all fun to me. There's also the problem that many HC players have which is that the traps have significantly different damage characteristics from monster damage. Which is probably the reason that HC populations have decreased significantly. (Note, I don't play HC so I'm going by what others have reported.) Of course goetzjam has claimed that Pryokar is the only HC person that has complained about traps. But that is actually a rather ridiculous thing to argue. I suspect that far more HC players have complained or quit because of traps than SC players.

Some monsters have significantly different damage characteristics from other monsters. Should Chaos damage be removed so that ES builds don't have to go out of their way for a solution to that problem? Should damage types in general be removed so players don't have to worry about getting the right resistances for different parts of the game?

You don't like Lab so you think GGG should simply take it out of being a necessary part to building a character... A lot of players don't really like running Normal and Cruel every time they want to make a new character, should GGG simply give players a level 55 character to reduce the time cost of making a new character?

It's a matter of degree. Sure there are some relatively minor differences between monsters but having traps do damage based on character (life + (0.6 x ES)) is much more significantly different from monster damage than differences between different monster damage.

geeze....are we still crying over the lab? take a big long look at reality...it...is...not....changing...

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Xtorma wrote:

geeze....are we still crying over the lab? take a big long look at reality...it...is...not....changing...

Thank you for the bump. If they fix labyrinth in 2.4 to make ascendancy points available without trap gameplay then I'm sure we'll have you to thank because of this timely bump!!

Thank you support for removing lab.

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It's a matter of degree. Sure there are some relatively minor differences between monsters but having traps do damage based on character (life + (0.6 x ES)) is much more significantly different from monster damage than differences between different monster damage.

Yeah which means the big difference between traps and telegraphed attacks is that traps allow mistakes. If I accidently walk into Izaros... well almost anything in the Uber Lab I'm dead, or close to. I noticed with my Occultist that some traps are not even able to kill him. He could stand still in Spike Traps and moving saw blades, since his ES recovery was faster than reemerging spikes or returning sawblades.

Traps and Dungeons are a natural fit. I would actually like to see some other environmental dangers. Right now traps do something the game would benefit from in other areas a lot. Unless you learn the different layouts you have to actually look were you walk. Very similar to Bearers or the Afterdead explosions from revenant summons. And again in difference to Extra Damage Bearers Traps don't kill you if you overlooked them, they poke you and unless you panic it is fairly easy to get to a safe spot.

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boring, irritating, tedious

So here is the question, actually 3.

How are they boring?

Traps replace regular ground. So if at all they would likely be replaced with something even more boring. And thats true visually and from a gameplay. Having to sidestep a sawblade can't be any more boring that just walking straight because there is no obstacle. I could buy into that if the whole lab is traps. But the smallest part of the lab is traps, the majority is regular ARPG gameplay.

How are they irritating?

If there is a lack of visual information thats an issue. But I couldn't agree on that. For me at least the purpose of the traps is clear, they are there to kill you just like anything else in the game. Is the way they deal damage irritating? Not any more than the rest of the game. There are actually more threads about random oneshots than irritating trap deaths. Are they irritating because you can sometimes just walk past them? Well thats a designer choice, maybe someone thought... oh you know what is missing, how about having a spinning sawblade here. It is more an art thing, there is usually only one actual trap gauntlet per area that you need to pass, the rest is purely for the looks.

How are they tedious?

Doing the trials with every character was tedious, I can agree on that. But traps. Walking over a trap segment might take twice as long compared to just walking over regular ground, or you might have to take a look first and analyze the trap, which might slow people down but it's far from tedious. Tedious could be the wrong word, maybe its more like an unnecessary roadblock, but then again they are not blocking very often and most can be past fluently.


Maybe someone could do a lab run on youtube and record the time he spends with traps. And just the main road. I don't expect someone not liking the lab exploring all side areas. I expect if you just run to Izaro to get your Ascendancy Points you might spend as little as 10% or even less with actual trap gameplay. Actually once you got to the same gauntlet twice and remember how it works you usually just walk past it as if the traps don't exist. Only Spikes and the Lava floor can actually slow you down, the rest can be just walked through. The thing is since they deal fixed damage it is also fairly easy to calculate if you could just walk through the trap of have to avoid it.

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Xtorma wrote:

geeze....are we still crying over the lab? take a big long look at reality...it...is...not....changing...

Maybe you missed this recent development manifesto:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1714341

Obviously this was a reaction to the "outcry" of players regarding the issue of permanently screwing up your Atlas. GGG was aware of the problem before that. They chose to ignore it. Probably only the size of the outcry convinced them to change it. Translated to the topic: The more people "cry over the lab" the more likly it will be changed. So maybe the world needs more anti lab threads?

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Emphasy wrote:

Only Spikes and the Lava floor can actually slow you down, the rest can be just walked through.

You forgot at least door traps.

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Emphasy wrote:

The thing is since they deal fixed damage it is also fairly easy to calculate if you could just walk through the trap of have to avoid it.

Tested trap damages some time ago. They do not do "fixed" damage. And I dont see how one could possibly "fairly easy" calculate the expected trap damage. One would need to have damage numbers first. Add in "trap movement pattern rhythm", Sentinels, Poison Darts, blocking Spikes, etc: Obviously this claim is blatantly wrong. There is no way to do this: "fairly easy to calculate if you could just walk through the trap of have to avoid it." If you really think otherwise - why dont you give an example case with a realistic complexity?

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Xtorma wrote:

geeze....are we still crying over the lab? take a big long look at reality...it...is...not....changing...

hi, would you take a look "you are just whining" in the first post then make a comment about it, ty

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Zrevnur wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

geeze....are we still crying over the lab? take a big long look at reality...it...is...not....changing...

Maybe you missed this recent development manifesto:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1714341

Obviously this was a reaction to the "outcry" of players regarding the issue of permanently screwing up your Atlas. GGG was aware of the problem before that. They chose to ignore it. Probably only the size of the outcry convinced them to change it. Translated to the topic: The more people "cry over the lab" the more likly it will be changed. So maybe the world needs more anti lab threads?

Maybe you missed that their response time in addressing an "outcry" is days when they feel the criticism is justified. This lab "outcry" has been there for 6 months. Does that not tell you anything?

Watch ZiggyD's latest video showcasing 5 map boss fights. One of them has the lava environmental effects (ie lava traps). Traps aren't going away. If that's a deal breaker for some people, time to either suck it up and deal with it or cut their losses and find a better game.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Nykken wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

The main issue I have with the labyrinth is that it is a different gameplay from the rest of PoE.

What part of it is different? I assume you mean the traps.
To me, traps don't seem very different from dodging telegraphed spells from bosses. You don't facetank a smash or something like Piety's spin and you aren't supposed to facetank a circular saw.

Yes, for many people trap game play is significantly different from arpg style play.

You know, I just happened across the original Ascendancy Announcement and GGG themselves describe the traps as "an entirely new gameplay type for Path of Exile".

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Turtledove wrote:

It's a matter of degree. Sure there are some relatively minor differences between monsters but having traps do damage based on character (life + (0.6 x ES)) is much more significantly different from monster damage than differences between different monster damage.

Chaos completely ignoring energy shield is a much more dramatic difference in damage types, they aren't even comparable, and not all forms of chaos damage are as completely avoidable as trap damage.

Plus you have a bunch of abilities that deal such high amounts of damage that it's impossible to face tank at any reasonable gear level (or the springs boss corpse explosion that is impossible to tank period)