So the Orlando shooter has burial rights? You're shiting me...

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Jennik wrote:

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Durentis wrote:

You continue to very greatly disturb me. I find myself wishing that I could hide your posts and those in which you are quoted to avoid seeing your hate propaganda. Valued Poster. Heh.

POE Forum Ignore List

Thanks! I had forgotten about GreaseMonkey. Reminds me of the auto expander for Charan's list of supporter avatars.

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Jennik wrote:

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diablofdb wrote:

One week prior to the killing, an Imam in Orlando was making a speech about how we should all kill all homosexual.

To be fair, Muslims don't have the market cornered on wanting to kill all homosexuals.

They do have the market on throwing gay men off of roofs and then stoning them to death. I don't recommend googling the actual video they made of it unless you have a strong stomach. This isn't an isolated incident either. Although there is no gore or victim in the following image, the people shown are gathering to witness and participate as another gay man is thrown off the building shown and then stoned to death by the people below if he survives.

Note: There is no gore or victim in the following image - this is taken prior.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these people aren't Westboro Baptists:



There were gay men thrown to their deaths at separate incidents in Jan, Feb, June, and August of 2015 and in May of 2016 - those were just the results from the first page of Google.

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Jennik wrote:

I highly recommend watching that video. It has many Christians (among others)

5 out of the 8 (well, 9 if you count Voltaire) in the video are muslims. While 3 of the 8 weren't muslim they didn't talk about actually committing the crime themselves. 1 of the 8 stated "We have no homosexuals in Iran, we killed them all." Guess which religion that one was?

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Jennik wrote:

talking about the shooting and they are some truly reprehensible people saying absolutely monstrous things. Claire also has tons of other fantastic videos if you want to check those out, including many in a similar vein.

The sentiment that we should kill all homosexuals is maybe more common among Muslims, but this is a poison you'll also find in other religions.[/quote]

We're not talking about sentiments here. 50 people actually murdered for being gay, 10 plus thrown to their deaths from roofs I don't have the heart to see how many more they have killed this way - it saddens me too much already just to see photos and video from a couple of these tragedies.

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DalaiLama wrote:

We're not talking about sentiments here.

No, you are not talking about sentiments here. The person I replied to was talking about sentiments. I was talking about sentiments. You, as usual, are talking about something entirely different from what everyone else is talking about, while apparently having absolutely no clue that you are doing so.

Please don't respond to my posts as if I'm saying something completely different from what I'm actually saying. I don't think a single thing you have ever said in response to me was actually applicable to what you were responding to. This is not a good trait to possess. You should seriously try to stop doing it.

If you really want the best, do not pursue thoughts that will separate people. When it all comes down to it we are all brothers on this earth and we should strive not to make enemies of each other.

Look at the list of events dating back to what the 70's or something like that. Stop selective reasoning, you are being no less mindless than they are(pure product of community no self-reflection as the extreme).

All of this bullshit it is the masses being sicced upon each other, fighting each other instead of helping each other, it really is low on the human scale of development.

This whole sort of fort-like thinking is an embarrassment to anyone actively pursuing it. It shows only how you act out of fear. There is a time when a threat is real - and you cannot afford to remain naive. This is not it. This is fear-mongering.

Lifestyle/traffic whatever else is a much greater threat than any of the extremists. It is completely out of proportion when it comes to how insignificant a threat it is vs how much it matters to the "public". Media shoves it down your throat and most of you eat it raw. You don't think too much, you just remain open to manipulation and don't question too much what you are told.

And many of the people leading these types of arguments are from america, america where the media's power to influence and persuade is harnessed the most in the world right now - short of forbidden subconscious techniques used in nazi propaganda. Look at the embarrassing trump. He got you thinking thoughts like - who would iran be most afraid of - him or hillary. Media controls you through fears, and simply manipulation.

But lets go to look at america.. america shouldn't say shit about muslim contries they have killed probably a thousandfold more people in muslim countries than muslim have in western. America acts like an empire in reality. Empires are based on resources and they will rise and fall accordingly - as such to remain in power they secure resources(oil) across the world. They also destabilize the middle east, america and russia earns a lot selling weapons to the different sides of the conflict. Ever since america started messing in foreign affairs the killings have increased, the chaos has increased, extremist groups have been founded by american money and much of it can be traced back to american meddling. Europe cleans up the mess after america. All the refugees etc etc along with whatever issues integrating them that comes can again be traced back to america acting like they own the world, sitting on their island and letting the rest of the western world clean up the mess.

Now empires... and emperialistic thinking.. is.. not always bad. Now if you look at the world, the strongest empires, and often those kingdoms who brought divided people together to stand as one often start out being conquered. China for example, etc, etc, all over, probably in nearly all cases of great empires. Despite it going against international law and conventions, sometimes the best way is to force people to take things and control them. However, you can't ever allow anyone to do that, because if it becomes acceptable it will be abused and in most cases will lead to destruction. However to unify the true leader needs to push away all the tree-hugger concerns and do whatever it takes. So in that sense, you can't fully blame america for being imperialistic, it is not so simple as black and white. But america did break tons of international law and convention. You for example are not allowed to just go attack a foreign domain just because you feel like it. America does that.

The real battle is one of cultures, of opening cultures to each other. That is how things will improve. Building mutual respect and admiration so that we approach each other and learn is how the world can move forward rather than regress. That will spread from within and it will eventually not become socially acceptable to perform acts against the "enemy" culture the way it is now. To cure a decease you must find out the source of the problem and deal with it, rather than trying to conceal the symptoms. You cannot just fight the extremists they are only products, it is more important to figure out where they come from and deal with that.

Whether it is true or not i do not know, but word on the street is that the Quran is the most accurate or most truthful scripture that deals with the nature of right and wrong. It is said that no other literature addresses the topic as well as the Quran - that among religions Islam is the one that comes closest to the universal truth whereas other religions have more poisonous teachings or are not as exhaustive/ambitious to approach the wholeness of all. Science and all is good, but in the western world we have our moral guidelines floating around and have not taken any true form either. When we advance as society, maybe someone one day can write some sort of guideline to life, it's trials and tribulations that will be free of religion(one god, believe or infidel, always right can't question etc), but until then the religions fill a void that is not filled by economic theories and science, it teaches consciounce. So.. if the word is true and the quran is actually very very truthful we should also show it some respect. It is nearly an impossible feat to write something so truthful that it is not packed with flaws. Really this is the standing point, their own proof of its absolutele truth, that the teachings within are so difficult to actually question or point out flaw in. I have never really heard anyone who successfully did that to any large extend either. Most of them attack a few points, or take something out of context, and while they may be right that doesn't mean that there is not also a lot of truth in islam. But again, much of it is already integrated in our society through christianity.

In the west we spend a lot a time trying to put down islam or the Quran. Imagine if you loved something, and someone spent their all time trying to put it down. You probably wouldn't like them, or even care to listen to them. So we really have to stop focusing on islam and believe in inviduals - start living outside of the past, just be, and react naturally and they will take it in and maybe one day islam will take a spiritual backseat similar to the way christianity has in the western world. Trying to attack it right on won't help but only make things worse. For example have you tried to force your way through someones mind shield when it was up and fully defensive? I have. It was not pretty. It is not the best way to do, it is only ever a last resort. We keep attacking islam, forcing them in defensive positions as they love it and won't be shit on. Can you really blame them? Maybe they do have some things to learn and their culture some things to catch up on, but trying to attack it head on is not the way.

Lead by example and give information to those lacking, that is how to deal with ignorance. Knowledge-->Understanding-->Wisdom is the antidote to ignorance. Just telling people they are wrong rarely does any good, instead tell them what is right and you won't need to fight them and approach them from a warlike angle.

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Jennik wrote:

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DalaiLama wrote:

We're not talking about sentiments here.

No, you are not talking about sentiments here. The person I replied to was talking about sentiments.

1) You were responding to diablofdb.
2) diablofdb stated: condemn to death

Maybe the phrase "condemned to death" is a sentiment to you, but in the real world it is literally and legally a death sentence. Imams and Mufti have issued fatwas calling for an active attempt to kill the target of their condemnation. Salman Rushdie didn't go into hiding because a sentiment, but because he was condemned to death.

Perhaps you'll recognize it more clearly here:

(CNN)The U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled that the process used to condemn a Florida death row inmate was unconstitutional because a judge rather than a jury was the final arbiter of fact in sentencing, opening the door to further challenges in death penalty cases in Florida and elsewhere.


Here is the quote you replied to, with the relevant section bolded

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diablofdb wrote:

So there is the Wesboro church that is refusing to marry 2 gay people in the USA and everyone denounce it and how horrible it is. But Islam condemn homosexuals to death and they get a free pass. Islam never was a religion of peace. One week prior to the killing, an Imam in Orlando was making a speech about how we should all kill all homosexual. Yes I condamn Islam, because it is a ideology of violence, and I denounce ideologies that promote war and terrorism.

3) diablodb connected the dots "One week prior to the killing, an Imam in Orlando was making a speech about how we should all kill all homosexual." - as have millions of other people - in the pronouncements of islamic hatred turning into extreme physical violence, and not just being empty rhetoric.

So, maybe YOU were talking about sentiments alone, but the post you responded to, and the overall thread in general isn't.

This also exists in "the islam" (lol).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pride

Would certainly not happen in Saudi Arabia and actually last and this year police arrested people arguing they would drink in Ramadan(as far as I got that right).

I hope Mr. Erdogan, who is an ultraconservative, will not put an end to this, so far this is being tolerated.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/groups-vow-prevent-istanbul-gay-pride-160616151056179.html


Al Jazeera speaks of hardliner groups here, notice that plz. And yes, the governments of both Saudi Arabia and Iran are Hardliners, but certainly not all the people.

"[...]In Indonesia, where religion plays a dominant role in society, and where almost 90 percent of the population are Muslim, homosexuality is not punishable by national law, but condemnation of homosexuality has been voiced by many religious leaders, not only Islamic.[...]"

(wikipedia article on homosexuality in Indonesia)

In Germany homosexual relations between men have been a crime until 1968.


But in fact I have the impression, what happened in Orlando is based on the psychopathology mentioned in the above MSNBC interview, which ofc would also have to do with the religious background. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkerd1Cgl1M

As an atheist I don´t care much about burials, but letting everyone have one seems to show more empathy towards friends and relatives, even if some of the relatives might be guilty of some crime as well. It should not change that standard. Ofc there´s this feeling of revenge when it comes to the Orlando or e.g. Oslo/Utoya(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks) massacre, but still.

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DalaiLama wrote:

So, please tell me how in the year 630, well over a thousand years before the United States was a nation, how American foreign policy caused a budding warlord to raid a peaceful city, take it over and force the people (who were polytheists) to his new religion?

The city - Mecca.

America as a country doesn't even exist then. It got nothing to do with it. I don't see why it has anything to do with Orlando shooting. I am talking about why middle east dislike America. The motivation behind terrorism.

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Facts are not portrayals, nor sentiments.

Death tolls in 9/11 attacks is higher than all terrorist attacks in US combine for decades. al-Qaeda top the charts. Let's point fingers at rest of the Muslims that has nothing to do with it.

Terrorism is a rare event in America. You are more likely to be killed by car accident or homicide rather than by Terrorism. Your own citizens is more dangerous than Terrorists.

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DalaiLama wrote:

This was a planned homicide, and his family is probably celebrating a successful mission.

I don't agree. The facts give me the distinct impression that the Orlando shooter was a bisexual yet deeply religious Muslim whose soul was crushed by the public speech of a bigoted imam.

I mean, just imagine hearing, either directly or through acquaintances, that the local leader has said God wants those of your sexual orientation to be rounded up for extermination. You suddenly feel doomed, certain in your paranoia that you'll be outed; you avoid contact with family and friends. As isolation and depression set in, you begin to wonder if that's really what God wants: your death, and the death of others like you. Because of your orientation, you're already familiar with where homosexuals congregate. And, after you kill as many as you can, you realize that you're next, that you won't walk away from this. Your thoughts turn to how people will remember you, so you search for a way, any way, to cover up your homosexual past, so you give credit for your actions to every Islamic terror organization you can think of, hoping one of them will claim responsibility. Because you'd rather your family, friends, and faith remember you as a terrorist than as gay. Maybe even God will accept this as an apology.

That's my hunch, anyway.

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DalaiLama wrote:

1) You were responding to diablofdb.
2) diablofdb stated: condemn to death

Are you serious here? You're trying to prove me wrong by quoting something entirely different than what I responded to that's from an entirely different post? Really?

You have established a clear pattern of not being able to follow a conversation. You write incredibly lengthy posts that are often completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand or that even blatantly misrepresent it. When you are wrong, you double down and belligerently defend your wrongness in incredibly dishonest ways.

I value my time and sanity too highly to continue interacting with you further in any way. Good day.

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SkyCore wrote:

Even the worst among us is better than an animal.

I strongly disagree.