So the Orlando shooter has burial rights? You're shiting me...

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Jennik wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

I was speaking specifically to him grouping those people as muslims. I was trying to point out that we are all in the same group, the people effected by the events in those people's lives that brought us to this conclusion.

I would still disagree with you on this point. People's actions are heavily influenced by their beliefs. Today's Muslims are more likely to hold harmful beliefs than people in other major religions. Your average Muslims is fundamentally different from from an average person of another religion because their religion is fundamentally different than those other religions.

I disagree here, I would say the worst religion is the western capitalistic ideology, but that's a whole different discussion.

To your second point, the same could be said for the real life person portrayed in The American Sniper and yet he's hailed as a hero even though he killed way more people. But it's ok because he did so in the name of our 'religion' western society. I'm not so sure the families of his victims care so much about the semantics.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

I disagree here, I would say the worst religion is the western capitalistic ideology, but that's a whole different discussion.

Without offense, but capitalism is based on science. That there are a lot of unscientific people talking about capitalism (specially in a fundamentalistic way) is another thing.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

I disagree here, I would say the worst religion is the western capitalistic ideology, but that's a whole different discussion.

Without offense, but capitalism is based on science. That there are a lot of unscientific people talking about capitalism (specially in a fundamentalistic way) is another thing.

Right, that's why I specifically used the word ideology. My point is profit/consumerism worship is more reflective of human flaws common to religion rather than it being an expression of a scientific way to allocate scarce resources.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

I disagree here, I would say the worst religion is the western capitalistic ideology, but that's a whole different discussion.

Please don't conflate a belief in magic or the supernatural with conclusions based on rational observations of reality. Capitalism may be a flawed concept (I don't care to have that discussion in this thread), but it's not in remotely the same realm as Islam or Christianity.

If you're going to persist in calling capitalism a religion, please at the very least list your personal definition of "religion" so that I can have even the slightest hope of understanding you.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

I disagree here, I would say the worst religion is the western capitalistic ideology, but that's a whole different discussion.

Without offense, but capitalism is based on science. That there are a lot of unscientific people talking about capitalism (specially in a fundamentalistic way) is another thing.

"Soft" science. Economists don't really agree to each other. Economic theories isn't infallible and can be falsifiable.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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NeroNoah wrote:

That being said, selling it as part of the process to make religions dissapear is poor marketing for almost any religion. Atheists and agnostics are not really well liked in a lot of the world, US included, :)

Well, yeah. We atheists can't do it; we're not credible. The voices for moderation must come from within Islam itself.

I would say it has more to do with America foreign policies that cause deaths, destruction and misery to millions of Muslims in Middle East. People in Middle East dislike America, not even the moderates like America. How many dead Americans and dead Muslims in the Middle East? Are people having the mental block?

People in Middle East hate America. Negative Portrayals of Muslims as terrorists and negative sentiments is like a self fulfilling prophecy. The hate just escalate and spill over.

they keep taking the bait

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

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Jennik wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Again, I know it sucks to think that we're not different. There is comfort in pretending 'they' are not a part of 'my' group. To call them bottom of the barrel scum though is to ignore the reality of what happened and why. These tragedies deserve more than a head in the sand knee jerk reaction, for all sides involved.

I'm not sure what group you're putting me into or why you're even talking about groups now in the first place. Your initial statements dealt with individuals, not groups. My response dealt with individuals, not groups. I am an individual, just as the the people who committed those atrocities were individuals. I, as an individual, am fundamentally different from those other individuals.

Exactly how am I ignoring the reality of what happened and why it happened when I call these individuals bottom of the barrel scum? What do you even mean by that?

You must have misunderstood my response to ray's post then. I was speaking specifically to him grouping those people as muslims. I was trying to point out that we are all in the same group, the people effected by the events in those people's lives that brought us to this conclusion.

To your second question, I'm trying to convey the idea that to blindly label or judge someone to be bottom of the barrel scum seems to me to be dismissing all the bad shit that happened in their lives that led them to those actions. People have choices sure but people also don't just find themselves shooting gays in a night club or with a bomb strapped to themselves in an airport. A really fucked up series of events had to occur in a person's life for them to think that's the path they are going to take.

I'm not the one who started the whole "us vs. them" issue, where Islam is concerned:

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Islamic law recognizes a division between two distinct societies. One is the dar al-Islam, the “house of Islam” and peace. The other one is the dar al-harb, the “house of war,” or the “house of the sword.” Dar al-harb is the world of the infidel and the region of perpetual warfare. Barring any treaty, anyone who comes from the dar al-harb has the status under Islamic law of harbi. According to three different sources on Islamic law—Shaybani’s Siyar: The Islamic Law of Nations by Majid Khadduri, Al-Hidayah, and Ibn Rushd’s The Distinguished Jurist’s Primer—the word harbi means “enemy".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbi

If you or I are not Muslim, we are either Dhimmi (paying Jizya, protection money to the Caliphate, but still second-class citizens or worse), or we are harbi, enemies to be killed or conquered. This is the fundamental Islamic view of geopolitics. This isn't an "optional" belief; it is the bedrock of Islamic socio-political motivation. As Islam grows more prevalent in a Western country, so does radicalization. It is emboldened as political and de facto military power grows, and it is how Islam spread over 1,400 years to encompass much of the world. Don't preach to me about how these poor, suffering souls deserve my sympathy. They conquer, kill, rape, and enslave, and their holy book, which is to be adhered to without alteration or fail, casts ALL of us "infidels" as lesser creatures unworthy of mercy.

I will happily live in peace with any who will live in peace with me and mine. I will oppose those who seek the destruction of my own way of life. ='[.]'=

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So... we're not gonna treat him like those people who commit suicide because they're already a "lost cause"?

If our cowardly government would release the audio, and the exact transcripts of what the killer said and wrote (faceboook, emails etc), then psychologists could very likely tell whether he was suicidal or not. Verbal phrasings, tone of voice, unconscious hand movements can give information away to a trained specialist.

So far, that doesn't seem to be the case. Had Mateen taken his family out before the killing at the club, it would fit the pattern - as just one example.

This was a planned homicide, and his family is probably celebrating a successful mission.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Even the hate you're spouting

Ray isn't "spouting" hate. He is citing facts. Facts like - The sky is blue, or Bill Cosby has been accused of certain crimes.

When facts become perceived as hate, then the person perceiving it has reinterpreted the facts to fit their own world view. Whether they do so because they were taught/raised or influenced to think that way, or whether they are using the psychological defense mechanisms of denial is tough to say.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Personally I don't think we heal until we realize that hate can't stop hate.

In this case, the hate is a cultured product of a specific subset of society. While the vast majority of that subset do not share these views, they are considered acceptable for others to commit by a dismally large fraction (>10%). We need to stop the bleeding before any "healing" can begin. The bleeding is being caused by radical Islamic leaders promoting these behaviors.

Their continual promotion and recruitment are a cancer that needs to be excised - and the surgeon needs to be the Islamic nations who know their society best - like Saudi Arabia and Jordan, working with the rest of the world.


"Hamas-Linked CAIR Lawyers-Up Orlando Terrorist’s Family, Mosque Suspects

Even as the FBI has suspended formal ties to CAIR over its association with terrorist groups, CAIR reps are sitting in on FBI interviews with suspects at Mateen's Fort Pierce mosque. "

http://counterjihad.com/cair-hamas-linked-islamist-group-lawyers-family-mosque-suspects/


There is a coordinated support structure for these "lone" wolves.

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raics wrote:

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NeroNoah wrote:

As I said before, in the long run I'd rather see religions dissapear, but for now efforts to moderate them is the best route.

As a rule, I'm getting along really well with those muslims that do not shy away from a greasy pork chop and a drop of little something to bolster the appetite.

"Let not the first drop of alcohol touch your lips" is interpreted to mean "flick the first drop of your beer out of the glass and drink the rest" by many of my friends from Egypt and Sudan who are muslim - though most do not drink.