[2.3] Thundercane: Mjolner Uber Atziri Farmer

Helloooooo

you just talked about 2' discharge would be worse than lightning strike cause of the already consumed charges...

what about the UBER Lab enchant 30% chance for discharge to not consume charges....wouldnt that be 30% to double damage? that would be a flat 30% dps increase

"

He uses two discharges which doesn’t actually do what you would expect. There are threads on reddit and POE why double discharge in Mjolner doesn’t work. In short: the second discharge either has no charges left or only a power charge so it’s pretty much useless. Even the Rainbownuke build explains why two discharges don’t work.

IMO thats not entirely true with Unrelenting passive. There is at least max number of endurance charges to go off with secound Discharge even if its a crit build and first Discharge scored a critical hit.

EDIT: Found a Mark's post which confirms it works exactyl as I described here:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1606509/page/17/#p13451957

(quote from Mark's in the post).

Also shield charge is a lot of fun. You really shouldnt use Arc for pack clearing with fire oriented juggernaut mjolner build - its a bit weak this way. Arc is fine with Mjolner builds that are light dmg oriented, such as Rainbownuke. Yes you are using ele weakness via Blasphemy but most mobs will be out of its aoe when arc is considered.

Like srsly - go try double Discharge with shield charge Dimensi0n.

"

Thundercane doesn’t use Repetance gloves. The damage is compensated with Controlled Destruction, Fire Penetration, and Elemental Weakness

And it really should. You're loosing dmg this way. More multipliers are worthless if theres not enough dmg increase to multiply with and your tree provides non. With at least iron will from gloves you would have 80%+ spell dmg increase to start with.

Dont get me wrong, build is "ok", tanky and so on but it can be much better with few tweaks (again :)

Double Discharge:

I may be wrong, but this is my understanding of double discharge: You discharge your first one and lose all charges (both endurance and power charges). Immediately afterwards, you gain a power charge from the first discharge and then the second discharge goes off (with only 1 power charge and 0 endurance charges).

When you run only 1 discharge, you'll notice that it is predominantly yellow (because the ratio of endurance to power is high). When you run 2 discharges, you'll notice that there are now 2 animations: one yellow and one blue. The first discharge is the full max endurance charge discharge (yellow) and the second discharge is the single power charge discharge (blue).

Secondly, when you run two discharges and a support in Mjolner, it does not increase the boss clearing speed at all when you compare it to one discharge and two supports. I tried this out and there seems to be no DPS change.

The fact that Juggernaut now gives maximum endurance charges does not change how this mechanic work since you lose all endurance charges anyways (it does not matter how many you had). It works the exact same as it did when Mjolner first came out. If you have no power charges in your first discharge, you will end up with an empty second discharge.


Arc:

The build no longer uses Arc, I had edited it a few days ago. Running Discharge - Controlled Destruction - Fire Penetration is the current setup.


Repetance Gloves:

Mjolner builds modifiy damage in four major ways. This is very important to understand why Repetance gloves are not as strong as people think, so listen closely. When you start with a base damage, you undergo damage modifiers in these steps:
1) % increased damage
2) % more damage
3) % resistance on enemy mob
4) % attack speed (indirectly)

Now most Mjolner builds a little over 400 STR, which means Repetance only grants you roughly 80% increased damage. This is only important if you have no other % increased damage, because yes you are right, it if you have 0% increased damage to start with, the rest of the damage modifiers aren't as effective. This is not the case though, the build has plenty of % increased damage already:

10% increased fire damage from Q20 Fire Penetration
10% increased spell damage from Q20 Controlled Destruction
20% increased spell damage from Saffell's Frame
30% increased damage from Unyielding
60% increased damage from Unrelenting
15% increased damage from Flame Golem
~20% increased damage from Rallying Cry
40% increased damage from Sulphur Flask

This already is almost 200% increased damage for the first modifier. After that, it gets multiplied again by Controlled Destruction (multiplicatively) and then it undergoes the resistance test on enemy mobs, which also modifies the damage multiplicatively. And lastly, all of this produced damage is then affected by our final modifier: attack speed. Attack speed is last and most important since it is one level above multiplicative damage. This means that a little bit of attack speed can break even with a lot of % increased damage. This is why Thundercane hits 6.0 attack speed: it values attack speed (and it really should).

So in the very end, the 80% increased damage boost from Repetance is not worth the entire gloves socket at all (80% increased damage is literally the only important stat it provides). When you wear rare gloves, you get an attack speed mod, which already makes up for the 80% increased damage. Along with that, you get more life and resistances. I personally feel that Repetance is overrated on Mjolner builds and gets too much credit for what it really does, but I'm not going to tell you to not wear them.

If you like using Repetance gloves, then by all means wear them, but this build does not use them for reasons I just explained. Same deal with double discharge. If you like it then use it, but Thundercane does not. You do not have to follow this guide completely. It is encouraged that you tweak this build in your own way and in a way that fits your playstyle.

Also, thank you Furywrath for your support! I'm glad you are enjoying this build. Have fun farming bosses!

Dim, I know how things work with Mjolner builds :)


Regarding gloves:
------------------------

I've run some numbers (additional spell dmg inc from jewels not included) using your gear and tree:

Without Repentance you should have ~9.4k tooltip per Discharge unbuffed, doing 197k dmg with legacy mjolner with your 6.02 aps @3/10 charges to 0% resistance target and 150k to 40% resistance target (penetration and ele weaknes included to both).

Half of your dmg increase is temporaly effect from flask and warcry, so when activated, fully buffed you should have ~12.7k tooltip, doing 267k to 0% resistance target and 203k to 40% resistance target. Which is quite good but not allways "on".

Now with Repentance and without 12% ias gloves you should have 5.76 aps, 13.6k Discharge tooltip unbuffed, doing 274k to 0% resistance target and 208k to 40% resistance target which is allready higher and allways "on".

Fully buffed with Repentance you should end up having: 16.9k per Discharge tooltip, doing 341k to 0% resistance target and 259k to 40% resistance target which is on pair with low life Zerker and in your case its 27% more total dmg than attack speed gloves.

So this:

"

When you wear rare gloves, you get an attack speed mod, which already makes up for the 80% increased damage.

is incorrect in your situation.


You are welcome to use my mjolner dmg calculator to validate it for yourself:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rL6ZbBrIj0xE3r9jsc5RaIFoR4tJlfi50vkQ90cF15c/edit?usp=sharing

There are two builds included as an example to work with and to compare one to another.

If you cannot edit use: File->Make a copy.


Regarding duoble Discharge mechanics:
----------------------------------------------

Visual effects are not allways representing whats happening ingame engine. They are only visual simulation. Take a look at Marks post. As a programmer at GGG he explainned whats going on regarding this mechanic:



Considering above, this:

"

You discharge your first one and lose all charges (both endurance and power charges). Immediately afterwards, you gain a power charge from the first discharge and then the second discharge goes off (with only 1 power charge and 0 endurance charges).

is incorrect - you will have 1 power charge and max endurance charges for your secound Discharge.

I've run several dps checks on this matter and what can I say is that double Discharge is working fine so you actually gain from secound one. Especially when non-legacy mjolner is considered as its greatly improve its proc chance. Take a look:

"

You do not have to follow this guide completely. It is encouraged that you tweak this build in your own way and in a way that fits your playstyle.

I dont have to. I have designed my own version quite a time ago, of which guide you can find here:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1606509/page/1


Now I dont want to offend you or sabotage your build/thread or something but rather to give a bit of advice, so you can improve your build if you want. Maybe you dont remember but back in 2.0 you gave me several advices that I used to create "adjusted" version of your 2.0 Thundercane. If you dont want to improve your current build its fine. As I said its "ok" to me how it is but could be better (dmg wise) with very little effort (a gem swap, a gloves swap). Also check things out and dont respond blindly, guiding others to what seems not allways a correct direction.


Cheers bro.

Thundercane is an Uber Atziri farming build, which means that it is more effect against enemies with higher resistances (50-70%). Your calculations are inaccurate because resistance penetration ends up yielding more damage when you run high resistance numbers (which endgame bosses have). You know what, I'm sorry but I am tired of debating things like this with you.

Honestly Rico, it seems like you are attacking my build quite strongly. I saw those numbers and those numbers don't portray everything that is actually going on. I can already see where this is going. We're gonna end up going back and forth on what's what and in the end, you will have your build and I will have mine. Now if you don't like how my build is setup, then you can continue complaining about it. I still stand by what I said because I've tried this build with Repetance and without and I have chose to keep my version for obvious reasons. Yes, I know you understand enough about Mjolner builds because you talked to me for months back on my 2.0 Thundercane thread (which you used most of my ideas in your build with some minor tweaks which you deemed fit). It was very easy to see that the basis of your build was founded from 2.0 Thundercane. Now whatever your beliefs (I say beliefs because DPS on Mjolner is not so easily calculated, the closest to the actual DPS of Mjolner is here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/917173/page/146) are regarding your setup with Repetance or Double Discharge or whatever it may be. That is solely your preference on it, that doesn't mean it is better. You were running numbers on the DPS when throughout my guide, I even explicitly stated that Thundercane is more tanky oriented over damage. So while you may have 20% more damage than I do (you are actually missing a few calculations), it does not mean I my build is inferior. I had designed it to be easier to Farm Uber Atziri with an optimal balance between tankiness and damage. If you disagree then by all means share it on your thread, not mine. I still stand by what I said about Repetance gloves. This may not be the case with yours, but for mine, it is. Please refrain from trying to change my build (since my Thundercane build did in fact come before yours). You are certainly welcome to offer suggestions though.

Rico, I simply do not have the time to argue with you about this and it's quite inconvenient to argue over something that is so petty as well. I know you have your credentials with Mjolner builds and I certainly have mine (been maining it forever). You continue to act as though your build came first and you act as though I should be asking for advice from you. You and I both know how our "Mjolner Differences" started. Your build is based almost entirely on my old 2.0 Thundercane.

Proof: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1351140

Rico I do apologize for sounding so aggressive about this, but I cannot continue to discuss entire build ideas like this with you. I believe that the Thundercane build has been fully maximized to its potential and intend to keep it this way. This will be the last time I discuss this with you.

I'm to old to argue with stubborn childlish comments so this is my last post here. But before I go wanted to clarify some things: argue wasnt my intention at all. Wanted to help as you helped me before. Sad for you that you're to blind to see it. No one is "attacking" you or your build. I gave you exactly what every proper guide poster should want - a suggestions. Grow up.

DPS comparision I've done was using your build and your build only (and I wrote about it). That was based on experience, calculations, dps checks, lots of gameplays and facts - a developpers explanation on how exactly this mechanics works. Not some "conclusions" done based on some "predicting" from visual effects like a fairy tale. You dont want to change anything - thats fine and I said that. But at least dont mislead others. You're mad because you're wrong and someone proved that to you. It is clearly visible in your last post.

As far as your Thundercane 2.0 Shadow RT version goes that was desinged over a year ago - sorry but current Juggernaut fire version is something entirely different. Something designed from scratch. And you're not the first guy that came with that same idea. Currently you're last one.

So use whatever you want, do whatever you want but as far as there will be bullshit regarding some mechanics others will join to clarify. Same was with me, same will be with many others. Be prepared for that. And try to provide discussion that is "on level". Bye.

EDIT: yes you are right - that was unprofesional - sorry about that. English is not my native so in times I may sound not exactly as I intended it to. Bye bye.

"You're just mad because..."

Very professional of you. Goodbye, Rico.

So leveling a new toon for this now and curious can you break down the skill tree pathing as you go frickin every direction with is. Would be nice to see like a 40 60 point setup thanks.

Coming right up! For pre level 80, you will need extra attribute points from gear. Anything before level 60 you can choose the route that makes the most sense for what you are using to level.