[Rant] Why the Resistance System is sloppy and diminishing returns are better

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Mannoth wrote:

Why are you throwing D3 into the discussion?

If they have a diminishing return system it doesn't mean it works good, you can mess it up with ease also.

For a diminishing return system to work there has to be a clear availability of choice, if you have a diminishing return system regarding resists and picking resists is always better than not picking them then there was no choice in the first place.
If there was a clear choice between:
a) I can pick up more resistance and gain a slight defense boost
b) I can pick up more offense related stats and kill enemies faster
c) I can pick up more misc stats like %freeze duration that fit my build

And all 3 are relevant even after you soft cap your resist then the game itemization would prosper.

In my opinion the resist system in poe would be better off if it had a hard cap at 85% max resist and then the elemental damage was rebalanced, notice how the %max resist flasks went down because of the flask effect changes and pathfinder but monster damage stayed the same.

Why D3, because it is relevant to the discussion at hand, its an ARPG game that uses the system you are supporting, even if the exact implementation isn't the same as what you support.


You are talking about GGG fundamentally changing one of the largest design choices they made when they made PoE, the likelyhood of that happening is very little to begin with, but lets follow for a bit.



Those situations might be able to occur in PoE, until you think about the complexity of the situation we already have.


Think about it, all resistances are suffixes, which typically don't compete with offensive stats at all. Hell they don't even compete with things like life, es or armor. About the largest "choice" you would have to make is a stat like str\int going to be better then your build then a res, I guess in some slots cast speed\ect. But not really the larger things like wed. I guess also crit chance\crit multi, but not all builds use those.


So what OP is suggesting simply can never happen in PoE, the itemization doesn't allow for it and neither does the difficulty of the game. They would have to at some point select where most people would end up being at and balance the game for there, anyone above that threshold will have an easier time and anyone below will have a much harder time. Then you have to think about all of the various map mods in the game, paired with monster mods and who know whatever future things to come.


All of those games that have diminishing returns lack the complexity of PoE.


You and OP think it creates more options in the process, but go look at those games and tell me the itemization is better, because if you can't say it is, then you can't say PoE should do it either.



Ultimately it can't and won't ever happen in this version of PoE. You are talking about a rework of prefix\suffix system, rework of everything that does and doesn't have res. Corruptions or things with max res would need to be substantially different. This isn't desync level issue where they are going to touch everything to "fix it"

Well PoE itemization is literally a joke.

Most rare items look the same (not in visual but in the stats you want on them), only difference is the choice of what uniques you want in your build, the end.

Casters get mana regen, crit attackers go accuracy, both want crit chance & crit multiplier.
So yay for that suffix diversity we got going on atm.

I know it isn't realistic to happen ever in PoE, but I stand by my opinion that in general diminishing returns when done properly are better for itemization and build diversity.

I would be ecstatic if we actually had interesting stats on items to pursue and feel like GGG missed a chance to introduce them when they introduced the new tiers of affixes.

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Mannoth wrote:

Well PoE itemization is literally a joke.

Most rare items look the same (not in visual but in the stats you want on them), only difference is the choice of what uniques you want in your build, the end.

Casters get mana regen, crit attackers go accuracy, both want crit chance & crit multiplier.
So yay for that suffix diversity we got going on atm.

I know it isn't realistic to happen ever in PoE, but I stand by my opinion that in general diminishing returns when done properly are better for itemization and build diversity.

I would be ecstatic if we actually had interesting stats on items to pursue and feel like GGG missed a chance to introduce them when they introduced the new tiers of affixes.

ROFL LIEK I CANT EVEN


LOOK AT D3, which is using the system you are suggesting and say that PoEs itemzatin is a joke still.



At least we don't all just stack primary stat to scale the weapon damage that every skill uses. At least there are many different support options for skills. At least there are interesting ways to build characters like iron will or using conversion jewels to scale damage. At least not all of XX class goes XX build because its the "best"


They didn't misss any chance when they introduced a new tier of affixes, they literally cant change the affix system in the middle of the game, nor can they change the res system either.


As for new interesting stats on items, there is that new sword that is interesting, there is whispering ice, which offers a completely unqiue ability, there are plenty of things that make PoE's itemization fine, not sure why you see none of it.

Again with the D3?

I am not mentioning D3 anywhere could you stop countering my argument like I did? Or please stop responding if you can't.

The best thing they did regarding itemization in my opinion was introduction of jewels since they actually offer interesting stats.

And thanks for proving my point, itemization in PoE beyond uniques is dull and pale as you and 90% of the population will want the exact same things on your rare items.
Unique itemization is great, but rare gear itemization is almost non existent because of the fact there are no real alternatives to some stats.

I think both capped-reduction and uncapped-increase systems are okay in general terms. I feel capped-reduction is better for PoE because of its three-suffix system; without caps all suffixes would be resists, and that's boring.

Items could definitely benefit from mid varied affixes.

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Well PoE itemization is literally a joke.

Most rare items look the same (not in visual but in the stats you want on them), only difference is the choice of what uniques you want in your build, the end.

Casters get mana regen, crit attackers go accuracy, both want crit chance & crit multiplier.
So yay for that suffix diversity we got going on atm.

Well, it is true that some stats are recommended for most builds, such as life (except CI builds), resistances, but I would say that there are plenty of builds using plenty of different mods, there are physical spell builds, minion builds, RT builds that have no use for crit... There is always room for improvement, but itemization in POE seems ok to me.

BTW, I am following your vampire 2h build, my char is called "molomazo". Great guide :)

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At least we don't all just stack primary stat to scale the weapon damage that every skill uses. At least there are many different support options for skills. At least there are interesting ways to build characters like iron will or using conversion jewels to scale damage. At least not all of XX class goes XX build because its the "best"

Well, you have named all the reasons why D3 itemization is too simple. As for resistances, the only problem in D3 as I see it is that they are packed all together. I haven't played for a while though, maybe the distribution among items is also inappropriate, but either way that doesn't affect my opinion about resistances in POE.

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Peturba wrote:

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Your way would mean you'd want good resists on every item because you can never have enough. Just like an armour character. Have you ever seen an armour character that had enough armour? Your way instead of just wanting more armour, he'd want more resists too.

Of course, but he would have to make decisions on whether he wants more resists or more of other stat. INTERESTING DECISIONS.

What kind of logic is yours? If we follow it we might as well say "let's cap damage because right now one can never have enough".

What interesting decision? The choice you are talking about is an illusion. Please, link some boots that don't have resists that you would choose because they are interesting? How about gloves? Hats? You can't choose build enabling uniques because that choice already exists. I want to see something that somebody would choose over resists if resists were uncapped.

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mark1030 wrote:

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Peturba wrote:

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Your way would mean you'd want good resists on every item because you can never have enough. Just like an armour character. Have you ever seen an armour character that had enough armour? Your way instead of just wanting more armour, he'd want more resists too.

Of course, but he would have to make decisions on whether he wants more resists or more of other stat. INTERESTING DECISIONS.

What kind of logic is yours? If we follow it we might as well say "let's cap damage because right now one can never have enough".

What interesting decision? The choice you are talking about is an illusion. Please, link some boots that don't have resists that you would choose because they are interesting? How about gloves? Hats? You can't choose build enabling uniques because that choice already exists. I want to see something that somebody would choose over resists if resists were uncapped.

Ok, I will give you an example:
If I had to choose between two boots with the same stats but:
-One would give me enough "fire armor" to decrease fire damage taken from 55% to 50%.
-One would give me 15% more movement speed.

I would choose the movement speed.

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Peturba wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

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Peturba wrote:

Of course, but he would have to make decisions on whether he wants more resists or more of other stat. INTERESTING DECISIONS.

What kind of logic is yours? If we follow it we might as well say "let's cap damage because right now one can never have enough".

What interesting decision? The choice you are talking about is an illusion. Please, link some boots that don't have resists that you would choose because they are interesting? How about gloves? Hats? You can't choose build enabling uniques because that choice already exists. I want to see something that somebody would choose over resists if resists were uncapped.

Ok, I will give you an example:
If I had to choose between two boots with the same stats but:
-One would give me enough "fire armor" to decrease fire damage taken from 55% to 50%.
-One would give me 15% more movement speed.

I would choose the movement speed.

So you want to reduce choices to give the illusion of more choices? Currently you can get movement speed on the same boots as life and 3 resists. Your example implies that you want the user to have less options so they have to choose either movement speed or resists.

Everyone already hates diminishing returns on armor, why add even more of a mechanic people hate?

You have sensed a problem, but you improperly identified the problem. The real problem is that GGG has balanced the game so that capping resists is a requirement. If you remember in D2, capping resists was an optional way to boost defense, but you did not have to(unless you played HC, then it felt like a requirement, but even then, you did not have to cap anything but lightning for most situations)

I think it is a foolish decision to balance the game around all high lvl players having capped resists. It removes any thought or choice from the stat. GGG may as well just remove resists as a stat altogether.