[Rant] Why the Resistance System is sloppy and diminishing returns are better

I title "rant" because I know the resistance system is a core mechanic that there is no way ggg is going to change, but I need to get this out of my system.

Why I don't like it?
Because max resistances are rather easy to get and at the same time are so useful that they become a requirement. Sure, I can choose to let go the 25% fire resistance I need to reach the cap to get another mod in an item, but what other mod is going to be worth taking double fire damage?.

"75% softcapped resistances" becomes the reference point, and getting actual resistances (increasing the cap) is quite restricted.

If I want to be protected vs physical damage, I can always get more armor from regular items. If I want to be protected vs fire I have to get an unique, run an aura or use a flask.

Why I think it is sloppy?
Well, flat % reductions have the obvious problem that they can add to 100%, where no damage is taken which seems too much of an advantage. One solution could be to make resistance mods on items tiny, granting 1-5%, so it would be extremely difficult to reach 100% or anything close.
Instead of that, % resistance mods are huge and to deal with the 100% problem another rule is introduced: a cap.
Then, to make sense out of having access to more resistance as we level up, another rule is introduced, a penalty in resistances in each difficulty level. A penalty that would make sense if difficulty levels were actual difficulty levels chosen by the player, and not part of the regular playthrough required to progress.
And finally, to work around the problem of the cap being an absolute limit, new rules are introduced to make the cap flexible.
This mechanic is a Frankenstein, patched all over.

Why I think diminishing returns are better?
Different implementations of diminishing returns are already working in the physical mitigation and the evasion systems. They don't need caps, caps increases or difficulty levels penalties. THEY JUST GODDAMN WORK.

Thank you for reading, I feel better.

I disagree.

Having a defense that can be feasibly capped allows you have a clear point in gearing where you can change what you invest into, making the process more intuitive (which, let's face it: Gearing is pretty complicated already if you don't have a lot of experience with a build).

Unlike Evasion and Armour, Resistances are granted by the explicit mods rather than the level of the items you have equipped (the level of items also relates to what mods can roll on them, but it's not as ingrained in the specific slot). As such, you won't 'always' have resistances on your gear like you will have evasion and armour on your gear.

Because the amount of each resistance you have is restricted more heavily by the number of total suffixes available on your gear, and because resistances less frequently occur implicitly on gear (obvious exceptions found in Astral Plate and Jewellery), it is more realistic to reach a certain cap.

Also, there are 3 different types of elemental resistance (well, then Chaos, too, but that's normally not seen as being as important), so it takes up multiple suffix slots to make the variety needed, not just high rolls to make up the magnitude needed.

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Having a defense that can be feasibly capped allows you have a clear point in gearing where you can change what you invest into, making the process more intuitive.

Gearing to fulfill a requirement rather than tu build the character I want doesn't seem fun to me. If it is simplicity what we want we might as well remove resistances from item mods and make the current methods of increasing the cap the way to get resistances. However I think letting the player decide when he has enough defense is a better option.

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Because the amount of each resistance you have is restricted more heavily by the number of total suffixes available on your gear, and because resistances less frequently occur implicitly on gear (obvious exceptions found in Astral Plate and Jewellery), it is more realistic to reach a certain cap.

Also, there are 3 different types of elemental resistance (well, then Chaos, too, but that's normally not seen as being as important), so it takes up multiple suffix slots to make the variety needed, not just high rolls to make up the magnitude needed.

I am not sure if your point is "since res is less common it makes more sense to cap it". If it is, 9-10 item slots, how frequently appears in rares and the possibility to craft it gives plenty of room to the player to mass one res and keep the other at a minimum, if he chooses.

Hell, skiping only the last 5% of a res means 17% more damage of that element, why would anybody stop there. However the difference between 700 or 750 points of armor is small enough to decide to sacrifice it for another mod.

I would hate this change. It would change reistsances on items from being optional to being required. Currently you can use items without resistances if you get them somewhere else. If you get a few items with high resists you can get away with little or no resists on some items. Your way would mean you'd want good resists on every item because you can never have enough. Just like an armour character. Have you ever seen an armour character that had enough armour? Your way instead of just wanting more armour, he'd want more resists too. That would be the system that was unimaginative and sloppy. Not what we have now where you have choices.

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mark1030 wrote:

I would hate this change. It would change reistsances on items from being optional to being required. Currently you can use items without resistances if you get them somewhere else. If you get a few items with high resists you can get away with little or no resists on some items. Your way would mean you'd want good resists on every item because you can never have enough. Just like an armour character. Have you ever seen an armour character that had enough armour? Your way instead of just wanting more armour, he'd want more resists too. That would be the system that was unimaginative and sloppy. Not what we have now where you have choices.

Pretty much explained it perfectly, the resistance system is one of the better designed elements of PoE, rather then its counterpart in D3, which is absolutely dog shit.

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Your way would mean you'd want good resists on every item because you can never have enough. Just like an armour character. Have you ever seen an armour character that had enough armour? Your way instead of just wanting more armour, he'd want more resists too.

Of course, but he would have to make decisions on whether he wants more resists or more of other stat. INTERESTING DECISIONS.

What kind of logic is yours? If we follow it we might as well say "let's cap damage because right now one can never have enough".

Diminishing returns are always better.

You have an option on whether to continue building towards more defense or stop doing so after the returns diminish under a certain value.

% resists means every next point holds more value which means that if you can pick up extra % max resists there is literally no situation where picking it up isn't good, therefore lack of choice.

he does have a point in that % reduction is a slopy mechanic, 60% is a suicide, 75% is the bare minimun, 85% is good and anything above 90% makes the char pretty much inmune.

say we have a 5000 elemental damage
vs 75% = 1250
vs 85% = 750
vs 93% = 350

this is a problem becouse there is no balance parameter, if its done for 75% then anyone above 85% will hardly get scratched and if its done for 85% well lets just say that anyone not running with a purity of "x" + "y" unique will get 1 shooted.

personaly i think warcraft 3 concept of armor was the best, their reduction was % but it was exponentialy harder to achive the next %, this means it was easy to achive decent reduction while at the same time had some room for improvment for dedicated builds without making the gap between them big enought to create balance problems.

may be not his idea but what about removing +1 to max ress from items/skill tree/skills and make resistance a % reduction with decreacing returns?

it will olso give a reason to stack resistance past the cap.

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Mannoth wrote:

Diminishing returns are always better.

You have an option on whether to continue building towards more defense or stop doing so after the returns diminish under a certain value.

% resists means every next point holds more value which means that if you can pick up extra % max resists there is literally no situation where picking it up isn't good, therefore lack of choice.

You are wrong.


Look at D3's system and tell me that resistance system is better, even better look at the itemization in the game, its catered to their resistance system, removing the option altogether because in a perfect world you have res on everything there too, which rolls on literally everything.


Secondly % res does mean a lot, it is strong, but there are situations where it isn't good because after a certain point, which is whatever the overcap is for ele weakness (like 169 in hideout or something) it isn't as valuable. In terms of picking it up, the game has very few ways to increase that max res, which means its an opportunity cost, either auras or items, (flask too, but those were nerfed and are "temporary")


Lastly, its just not good balance in a game to have diminishing returns when the players don't have the option to really select and scale the difficulty, it sorta works in D3 because players are able to infinitely scale the difficulty, an option not available in PoE.


Its an illusion of more options and it creates this situation where the only time its "bad" to have that res is if you have to somehow give up something more important in the process, even if it diminishes.

Why are you throwing D3 into the discussion?

If they have a diminishing return system it doesn't mean it works good, you can mess it up with ease also.

For a diminishing return system to work there has to be a clear availability of choice, if you have a diminishing return system regarding resists and picking resists is always better than not picking them then there was no choice in the first place.
If there was a clear choice between:
a) I can pick up more resistance and gain a slight defense boost
b) I can pick up more offense related stats and kill enemies faster
c) I can pick up more misc stats like %freeze duration that fit my build

And all 3 are relevant even after you soft cap your resist then the game itemization would prosper.

In my opinion the resist system in poe would be better off if it had a hard cap at 85% max resist and then the elemental damage was rebalanced, notice how the %max resist flasks went down because of the flask effect changes and pathfinder but monster damage stayed the same.