exp loss on death is a bad old mechanic

Yeah, but we either have it one way, or the other. We either have it like it is now, and have fun being careful and thinking, or we'll have it mindlessly zerging everything, and calling it fun.

I pick the first one, and I'd prefer it to stay that way. If someone finds it not fun, well, tough shit - game was like this from the start, and tbh one of the very few which takes that approach. There are plenty other games that give you fun, casual approach - why not go to these games, instead of trying to change one of the last games like that, and therefore denying the fun to people who like it?

Come on. I want people to have fun. But I want to have my fun, too. So if there is no other way to make it work, just part ways. Simple.

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Perq wrote:

Yeah, but we either have it one way, or the other.

Well that's just flat-out not true. We're not carving the game into a stone block, it's a dynamic digital object. Do we have to either have hardcore or non-hardcore leagues? Is it just, you don't want to play hardcore, so tough shit? Of course not! And it needn't be for this kind of issue either.

Indeed, custom leagues were originally part of the way the game was pitched to players, and would be a perfect way to address this concern.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

Perq wrote:

Yeah, but we either have it one way, or the other.

Well that's just flat-out not true. We're not carving the game into a stone block, it's a dynamic digital object. Do we have to either have hardcore or non-hardcore leagues? Is it just, you don't want to play hardcore, so tough shit? Of course not! And it needn't be for this kind of issue either.

Indeed, custom leagues were originally part of the way the game was pitched to players, and would be a perfect way to address this concern.

They would also be the least populated and short term ones, too. GGG has to put money on that. I'd love to have PoE-D3-style, PoE-the-MOBA, PoE-the-survival-game, PoE-your-idea-how-game-should-work, so everyone could enjoy themselves in Wraeclast, but everything costs money.

Absolutely, everything costs money. But, you know, it's nobody's place to run the numbers on things except GGG - they'll always have to do it anyway because they're the ones in the know about their own capacity - so I don't see much point anyone else fussing themselves over that side of things.

(As an aside, I play on my own without trading, so it doesn't worry me if my league of choice isn't highly populated. )

I understand development takes time and resources, and so I understand not everything is possible, let alone possible in short order. I'm not issuing demands. I enjoy the game as it is and as it has developed so far (clearly: I've been playing it for years). This isn't "if GGG doesn't implement this stuff by tomorrow morning I QUIT AND THIS GAME SUCKS". Just "I don't agree with this design decision and I think the game would be better if it did this".

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Read again - I won't suddenly start playing like the mindless run-forward AI and I don't care if other people do.

If you do not care how other players react to situations your suggestions are not worth much from a game design perspective. The entire art of game design is based on anticipating reactions throughout a broad spectrum of people.

Feedback isn't about suggestions, though, it's about giving your thoughts as one individual player. So from a pure feedback perspective of "death penalty feels bad to me," okay, fair enough. Reporting a problem isn't as difficult as solving it. But if you're gonna suggest actual fixes you gotta up your game and get predictive.

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Vhlad wrote:

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davidnn5 wrote:

I defy you to find a good example of a grind-based game, let alone an ARPG, that doesn't have a penalty.

Diablo 3
Victor Vran
Dungeon Siege III
Torchlight 2
Van Helsing series (optional gold DP to respawn at location, or free respawn at base)
Grim Dawn (you can recover lost XP by clicking your grave marker)
Sacred (you lose a survival bonus)
Fable 2
Borderlands series (minor gold)
Dead Island series (minor gold)

You don't play many Action RPGs do you?

The death penalty in PoE softcore mode at levels 95+ is essentially forcing a hardcore gameplay experience on players who choose softcore. The time loss is too extreme, and too different from most games in the genre. For players who don't enjoy playing hardcore it's a fun killer.

Those games aren't considered hardcore by nature, they all are considered casual by design, at least now. Vanilla D3 was pretty difficult, but not via choice more to do with itemization IMO, which the AH somewhat trivialized.


In case you didn't know you are playing a hardcore ARPG game, that has a "perm death" and a "non perm death" version of leagues. People often call standard, softcore league but its called standard league for a reason, not softcore.



The penalty isn't going to go anywhere, its been asked in every q\a thread they've done and the answer has remained the same. Especially because the game has gotten easier, there literally is no reason to reduce it even further.

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goetzjam wrote:

Those games aren't considered hardcore by nature, they all are considered casual by design, at least now. Vanilla D3 was pretty difficult, but not via choice more to do with itemization IMO, which the AH somewhat trivialized.

In case you didn't know you are playing a hardcore ARPG game, that has a "perm death" and a "non perm death" version of leagues. People often call standard, softcore league but its called standard league for a reason, not softcore.

The penalty isn't going to go anywhere, its been asked in every q\a thread they've done and the answer has remained the same. Especially because the game has gotten easier, there literally is no reason to reduce it even further.

POE is as much hardcore as the melee skills (in other thread) being melee. Its only taged as it (wishfull thinking of developer to be so), but in reality the game require low amount of player skill except for some input in creating a build (where that is also copy paste from other people). Just like all the games that are listed above, nothing special.

I dont know good ARPG that is hardcore. I would say Witcher 3 as an action RPG is hard when you fight versus versus much higher level than you enemey, that can 1 shot you and you still try to kill it with just your player skill.

Want POE to be truly hard for most players?
Dunno how, but block any build sharing. Like nobody can learn other people builds, copy and share his build. Everybody gotta think his own build without anybody help (you can only learn from other people game mechanics).
Self found gear only.
Implement lot of twitch refleks attacks on mobs that deal % HP just like traps where no gear or build will help you against.
Implement high positioning requierements, so strategic decisions to make.
Implement skill combos that require good party gameplay.
Implement friendly fire including other players, your own minions and even yourself with skills that explode and so.

I can go with this list further, but look how much POE is lacking to require anything from player that would make this game hard, not even talking about hardcore.

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herflik wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

Those games aren't considered hardcore by nature, they all are considered casual by design, at least now. Vanilla D3 was pretty difficult, but not via choice more to do with itemization IMO, which the AH somewhat trivialized.

In case you didn't know you are playing a hardcore ARPG game, that has a "perm death" and a "non perm death" version of leagues. People often call standard, softcore league but its called standard league for a reason, not softcore.

The penalty isn't going to go anywhere, its been asked in every q\a thread they've done and the answer has remained the same. Especially because the game has gotten easier, there literally is no reason to reduce it even further.

POE is as much hardcore as the melee skills (in other thread) being melee. Its only taged as it (wishfull thinking of developer to be so), but in reality the game require low amount of player skill except for some input in creating a build (where that is also copy paste from other people). Just like all the games that are listed above, nothing special.

I dont know good ARPG that is hardcore. I would say Witcher 3 as an action RPG is hard when you fight versus versus much higher level than you enemey, that can 1 shot you and you still try to kill it with just your player skill.

Want POE to be truly hard for most players?
Dunno how, but block any build sharing. Like nobody can learn other people builds, copy and share his build. Everybody gotta think his own build without anybody help (you can only learn from other people game mechanics).
Self found gear only.
Implement lot of twitch refleks attacks on mobs that deal % HP just like traps where no gear or build will help you against.
Implement high positioning requierements, so strategic decisions to make.
Implement skill combos that require good party gameplay.
Implement friendly fire including other players, your own minions and even yourself with skills that explode and so.

I can go with this list further, but look how much POE is lacking to require anything from player that would make this game hard, not even talking about hardcore.

Your response is one of the most laughable things I've read on these forums in a while.



Witcher 3 isn't an ARPG game, its an RPG game, they fundamentally aren't the same. Its like comparing PoE to WoW, they aren't the same classification of games.


As for melee being melee, again its such a useless topic to debate because regardless if I am "right or wrong" by your standards, the game is the way it is.


As for how to make it hard.

First you enforce that death matters, so progression isn't just given for "free" that means the death penalty in softcore must remain.

Second you can't block build sharing or information sharing, it actually even stupid you suggest it because its literally impossible.

Self found doesn't fit the loot system or the currency system in the game. D3 is self found and its not "hardcore" as a matter of fact hardcore is considered a joke in that game, to the point where very very few people even do it.

Twitch reflexes, lol, this is ARPG game they don't have those. Traps have patterns you can completely avoid.

There are some positioning fights, but they don't typically last long enough to matter as much. Again this is commonly found more in MMORPG games.

"skill combos that require party play", did I mention this was an ARPG game where you should and do have full access to the game's content solo.

Friendly fire. ROFL, there literally is no way to explain how stupid of a suggestion this is, except just saying that.



You can go on and make up dumb shit that doesn't work in ARPG games or you can accept the reality of the situation. In terms of it being difficult, that is up to you, your highest level character is level 92 so either you stopped playing it or you keep deing, whichever it is I doubt you've challenge that character against the multiple different encounters that have been added.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If you do not care how other players react to situations your suggestions are not worth much from a game design perspective. The entire art of game design is based on anticipating reactions throughout a broad spectrum of people.

Well, please read my first response to Perq, above, before you form the final impression that I'm trying to impose my particular preference over everyone. Anticipating reactions doesn't mean finding it a problem that different people play differently. That's what I mean when I say I don't care - that it doesn't bother me. Some people play Mass Effect 3 on "Insanity" difficulty, others play on "Narrative". Some people mod Skyrim to be a constant battle for survival, others make themselves walking gods. As you say, this is all about considering the fact that a broad spectrum of people will be playing your game.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Feedback isn't about suggestions, though, it's about giving your thoughts as one individual player. So from a pure feedback perspective of "death penalty feels bad to me," okay, fair enough. Reporting a problem isn't as difficult as solving it. But if you're gonna suggest actual fixes you gotta up your game and get predictive.

Feedback is absolutely about suggestions; they can't be separated. All feedback implies a suggestion that the game be different (otherwise there's no point saying it), and all suggestions that the game be different imply the person has a reason for wanting that change.

I "got predictive" (briefly, yes, but I'm hardly the only person to not post a grand essay in this forum and I don't see you telling everyone else off about it) in my very first post in this thread, and we've been discussing "predictions" since then - it's clear we have disagreements on those, but that's the nature of predictions as opposed to measurements. I made it clear earlier that I am completely in favour of "digressing" to discuss the broader implications of an idea, so if there are other issues you'd like to raise, well, raise them or don't. There's nothing to be gained by this "your posts aren't worth much, up your game" silliness.

Let's put it this way, Gus: in the same way you claim to "not care" about other players zerging with their remaining portals, my hunch is that GGG does "not care" about you not zerging with remaining portals, at least as far as the death penalty is concerned. They propose of the death penalty, mechanically, is to thoroughly disincentive that type of zerging behavior; your inclination not to do so is moot, it's the inclination of others which is important. The nature of maps (paid entry fee) already naturally encourages such behavior in non-HC leagues, so the need is great.

Of course, intent is different from reality, and I do not believe the current death penalty is effective at stopping the zerging behavior it's intended to stop. However, that's due to the nature of the specific death penalty, not death penalties in general. Since death is such an integral part of zerging, it's rather difficult to think of sufficient deterants which don't involve penalizing death. I think the game flat-out needs a death penalty, and could benefit greatly from having a different one than it currently does. And not in terms of numbers, but in terms of the type of penalty.