SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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gibbousmoon wrote:

How can GGG make the Labyrinth more interesting and fun, without spending shitloads of money/time creating additional assets?

As I see it, by removing a portion of what makes the lab an irritating place, while adding some elements as to why we play this genre.

What can possibly that be, you ask? Well, here we go:

Backtracking...
...is "universally" disliked. While it IS a labyrinth, one possibility could be more than one exit that leads to the next segment, a part from the occasionally secret ones. OF course, you could just "read up" on third party sites, that will tell you where to go. But what is the point of the lab then?

Traps...
...Aren't fair. You build your character from scratch, takes a lot of choices regarding defenses, just to have the traps ignoring a lot of those choices. This CAN be tweaked, by letting evasion, dodge, block etc. have some kind of impact on them.

Boss encounters...
...Are one of the main reasons we play games like these. Remove some traps, and have an extra boss or two in there.

Add more options...
...To "change up" your run. Prophecies letting you create one portal? More prophecies adding monsters? Create more "personalizing".

More random...
...Stuff, to TRY and make each run interesting. Monsters "breaking out" from the walls, treasure hunts, fragments - by collecting all, you activate a treasure. More FUZZ!

There are tons of things that could be done by some tweaks. But as long as "GGG have better and more important things to spend their resources on" is the bottom line, well...

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Phrazz wrote:

Backtracking...
...is "universally" disliked. While it IS a labyrinth, one possibility could be more than one exit that leads to the next segment, a part from the occasionally secret ones. OF course, you could just "read up" on third party sites, that will tell you where to go. But what is the point of the lab then?

Traps...
...Aren't fair. You build your character from scratch, takes a lot of choices regarding defenses, just to have the traps ignoring a lot of those choices. This CAN be tweaked, by letting evasion, dodge, block etc. have some kind of impact on them.

Boss encounters...
...Are one of the main reasons we play games like these. Remove some traps, and have an extra boss or two in there.

Add more options...
...To "change up" your run. Prophecies letting you create one portal? More prophecies adding monsters? Create more "personalizing".

More random...
...Stuff, to TRY and make each run interesting. Monsters "breaking out" from the walls, treasure hunts, fragments - by collecting all, you activate a treasure. More FUZZ!

Well, I'm not against any of this, if they get bored one of these days I wouldn't mind if they delegated a few people to minor lab tweaks.

Not sure enabling evasion vs traps is really needed, though, evaders are faster in general which is extremely useful in lab so I wouldn't say they're disadvantaged much. However, it would be thematic, rogues usually have a trap avoidance bonus of some sort in rpgs so I wouldn't mind it.

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raics wrote:

Well, I'm not against any of this, if they get bored one of these days I wouldn't mind if they delegated a few people to minor lab tweaks.

I agree. If they get bored one of these days I guess it would be OK for them to spend a few minutes tweaking the most-hated portion of the game that's made many players quit outright.

I mean, that is, if they have nothing better to do. Maybe they could delegate an intern or something to it. If s/he's not doing something more important, of course.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

@Shovelcut

Nice research chops, man.

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Phrazz wrote:

And when the lab is so fun, interesting and rewarding and not to mention good designed ARPG content, why is 9 areas "a bit much"?

This is the key question.

It's presented ironically, but the point is obvious enough.

How can GGG make the Labyrinth more interesting and fun, without spending shitloads of money/time creating additional assets?

I'm pretty sure this is something all but the most negative of us can get behind.

When you buy a lemon car , there is no amount of fuzzy dice, better stereo and cool tires that can make it drive better.

I am not giving suggestions on how to fix it because it will still suck balls. Let people avoid it like they can maps that are off build.

This is game that thrives when experimental builds can be tried and you can do weird stuff. The Lab stifles everything good and pure about POE and turns it into a crappy by the numbers game like every other game.

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raics wrote:

Not sure enabling evasion vs traps is really needed, though, evaders are faster in general which is extremely useful in lab so I wouldn't say they're disadvantaged much. However, it would be thematic, rogues usually have a trap avoidance bonus of some sort in rpgs so I wouldn't mind it.

It's not about the "difficulty" and if it's "needed" from a balance perspective, but has more to do with feeling as if your choices - in an RPG - matters.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

@Shovelcut

Nice research chops, man.

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Phrazz wrote:

And when the lab is so fun, interesting and rewarding and not to mention good designed ARPG content, why is 9 areas "a bit much"?

This is the key question.

It's presented ironically, but the point is obvious enough.

How can GGG make the Labyrinth more interesting and fun, without spending shitloads of money/time creating additional assets?

I'm pretty sure this is something all but the most negative of us can get behind.

The simplest answer would be to add the ability to get Ascendancies in another way.

The architecture of the space (long maze + trap gauntlets) and the monotonous and repetitious nature of the experience for all character types is enough to keep lab as the least enjoyed part of the game, even if GGG tweaks other elements that frustrate a lot of players.

The percentage of players who would even have a kneejerk "No, you shouldn't do that!" initial reaction to an Ascendancies alternative is tiny. The percentage who would keep their nose out of joint for any length of time is microscopic.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

The simplest answer would be to add the ability to get Ascendancies in another way.

Simplest in what way?

I wouldn't mind that option at all, but to be fair, the Ascendancy Points is a huge power boost, and it would kind of be stupid to just "get them". So for this option to "work", GGG would have to design something new. The BEST solution? Maybe. The simplest? No.

But I would take it :)

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Phrazz wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

The simplest answer would be to add the ability to get Ascendancies in another way.

Simplest in what way?

I wouldn't mind that option at all, but to be fair, the Ascendancy Points is a huge power boost, and it would kind of be stupid to just "get them". So for this option to "work", GGG would have to design something new. The BEST solution? Maybe. The simplest? No.

But I would take it :)

Mark1080, made a suggestion that another similar option might be to instead of making ascendancy points (AP) available another way, instead additional passive points could be made available another way. So the option would be additional passive points or AP not both. Maybe three, four or five passive skill points per AP, whatever GGG thought was the best trade off. I thought that sounded like a good alternative. For example, an advantage would that the only way that a character could ascend would remain the labyrinth. However, another build option would be available to get similarly powered passive skill points another way, even using one of the many options described in the OP of this thread.

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Turtledove wrote:

Mark1080, made a suggestion that another similar option might be to instead of making ascendancy points (AP) available another way, instead additional passive points could be made available another way. So the option would be additional passive points or AP not both. Maybe three, four or five passive skill points per AP, whatever GGG thought was the best trade off. I thought that sounded like a good alternative. For example, an advantage would that the only way that a character could ascend would remain the labyrinth. However, another build option would be available to get similarly powered passive skill points another way, even using one of the many options described in the OP of this thread.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind such a thing.

I've always had The ATlas in the back of my head to work in some kind of alternatives, as I don't really feel they've taken advantage of everything the Atlas idea might yield. But I guess the Pantheon System falls into that category.

But yeah, I guess a passive point trade-off wouldn't be so bad.

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Phrazz wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

The simplest answer would be to add the ability to get Ascendancies in another way.

Simplest in what way?

I wouldn't mind that option at all, but to be fair, the Ascendancy Points is a huge power boost, and it would kind of be stupid to just "get them". So for this option to "work", GGG would have to design something new. The BEST solution? Maybe. The simplest? No.

But I would take it :)

If simplicity was a goal, then using existing assets would work.

A trial by combat system could be fairly easily put together.

As in the Mayhem event groups of exiles could be encountered, or groups of invasion bosses. Or both together. Some variety could be interjected by randomizing bosses. More elements could be introduced for later efforts to ascend. (ie: Tormented spirits). Non-uber Atziri, some unusually appearing map bosses (ie: Tunnelworm, etc) could make the experience memorable, for even later efforts to ascend.

You could finish up each effort to ascend with one(!) fight with a full hit point, randomly buffed Izaro to finish things up.

If your character dies during the run, then you would need to start over again to ascend.

The only reward would be Ascendancy points. And an achievement, with the associated bragging rights.

PS: Hopefully GGG would resist the urge to make this fighting all take place on the head of a pin, the way many boss fights do these days.