Re-Rethinking Gold as a Currency

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Tempz wrote:

In the dev diaries they made it clear that they didn't want to have gold as its main currency as this leads to market inflation/deflation/gold farmers/gold sinks/etc... for now i think the system of item currencies is good which was similar to runes in d2.

http://www.pathofexile.wikia.com/wiki/Rethinking_gold_as_a_Currency

With testing the items as currency work just fine.

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Sickness wrote:

Find one good argument and I'll give you a cookie.

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Sickness wrote:

Okay if you want 4 chaos orbs for your bow, assuming that that is it's exacpt market price, then you actually have to find someone who both:
A. Want your bow.
B. Have 4 chaos orbs to trade.

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Sickness wrote:

The value of orbs would transfer to the "magical orb shards". Nothing else would change in that regard.

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Sickness wrote:

Orbs are note what materials are to other games. Atleast not in any game I have ever played.

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Sickness wrote:

Orbs are like having a dozen or more different currencies. It adds a layer of trading, currency trading. But why do we even want that?
There is a good reason why that is avoided as much as possible IRL: It makes the market less efficient.

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Sickness wrote:

There is sound economic theory behind the idea of currencies. I know, I studied economics at the uni.
Adding "magic orb shards" would simplify every trading process.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

My view of a good argument is clearly different from yours, so there's no way I would get that cookie even if Chris had shown up with Voltaire and Marx to explain the philosophies of the PoE currency system.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

That is the entire point of the utility-based trade system. You're supposed to seek out the person who is willing to make the trade you want, or alter your position on the trade to accommodate the offers you're getting. This is why a gold-based (or X-based) currency system would remove the social interaction aspect of trading.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

The orbs would still be used as currency, as players would still trade orbs for items to avoid using the middleman gold system. They would still hoard orbs for future trades, because they're valuable. A gold system is unnecessary. The only thing it would accomplish is making it slightly easier to trade, sometimes. That's not worth the effort of creating a secondary currency system.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

Sure they are. They're a class of consumable items used to modify other items, similar to how crafting materials are consumable items used to create/modify other items. The main difference is that PoE also uses them as tradeable currency. This is what people tend to do when money loses its value for whatever reason... Kind of like what would happen in a post-apocalyptic setting where useless standards are discarded in favor of necessities and things that make life easier and safer. Like things that make armaments and armor.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

In the bigger picture in real life, this happens constantly. Currencies from all over the world with varying values and availability are exchanged for one another at rates based on what we, as people, decide they are worth. This is nearly identical to what happens in Wraeclast. We have a certain class of items that are used as the basis for trades, and we, as players, decide what they are worth based on utility and availability.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

There is also sound game development theory behind the idea of itemized currencies. GGG knows, they studied game design at the uni.

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Wittgenstein wrote:

There isn't going to be gold in PoE. Developers have stated their views on the matter.. multiple times. Good talk. Points made. end the thread.


Just because I love kicking dead horses..

Utility is not always subjective, the whole premise of utilitarianism is based on that fact. If utility were completely subjective, it would be impossible to try and create an ethical world view with rules of conduct that could be followed by anyone at any time.

Utilitarianism is not relativism.

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Jurge wrote:

You say trading is a hassle, i don't. Is it really that hard to figure out yourself what you want to give/get for a specific item? Its the same as people want to know what the best build is.

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Epicurwin wrote:

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Baki wrote:

i daresay the current currency system prevents trading more than it encourages it.

i found this medicore item.. what can i demand for it? at best i will get a transmution orb for it. i dont need a transmution orb at all, i only need my alchemist orb -> item trashed, no trade

With Gold: I trade it for 2 gold. this will bring me a bit closer to my alchemist orb.

WOW! I haven't read every post yet, but even if this is corrected its so flawed that it deserves to be corrected again. One could just as easily say, "i found this medicore item.. what can i demand for it? at best i will get is 2 goldfor it. i dont need 2 gold at all, i only need my alchemist orb -> item trashed, no trade


With the currency items: I trade it for a transmutation orb. this will bring me a bit closer to my alchemist orb."

Honestly, that was just sad.

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Drunknmunkys wrote:

This thread is one big /facepalm...

Why introduce a middleman in gold? I want chaos orbs. I find leet bow. I decide I want 4 chaos orbs for it. Either I'll get 4 chaos orbs for it or the economy will tell me that 4 chaos orbs is unrealistic for that item, so I change my demands.

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Strill wrote:

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Wittgenstein wrote:

There isn't going to be gold in PoE. Developers have stated their views on the matter.. multiple times. Good talk. Points made. end the thread.


Just because I love kicking dead horses..

Utility is not always subjective, the whole premise of utilitarianism is based on that fact. If utility were completely subjective, it would be impossible to try and create an ethical world view with rules of conduct that could be followed by anyone at any time.

Utilitarianism is not relativism.

It IS impossible to create an ethical world view with rules of conduct that could be followed by anyone at any time. Just imagine a person who is hallucinating that everyone around him is a vicious monster. Under Utilitarianism, him killing other people who he sees as monsters would be immoral as the end result is death which is bad. However, if the hallucinating person himself were to apply Utilitarian principles to his own actions his actions would be moral as from his perspective he is saving others from having to face the monsters.

If you apply Utilitarian principles, whether the action is moral or immoral ends up depending on whose perspective you look at. Utilitarianism therefore cannot be objective.

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Jurge wrote:

You say trading is a hassle, i don't. Is it really that hard to figure out yourself what you want to give/get for a specific item? Its the same as people want to know what the best build is.

Of course it's hard! There's twenty different currencies! I could trade only for exactly the orbs I want, but then I would have to wait an incredibly long time to find someone with exactly the orbs I want who also wants exactly what I have. That's the whole problem with barter systems and the reason people use barter so rarely in real life compared to money.

On the other hand, I could also accept rare orbs I don't want, and try to trade them to other players for the ones I do want, but the devs have intentionally designed the system so that players are punished for this due to lack of trade parity, or in other words, constantly fluctuating exchange rates.

So it ends up that I have to spend far, far more time trying to find just the right person for my item than I would with a gold system. That means more time wasted sitting around spamming chat, not playing the game, and not having fun. That is absolutely BAD.

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Epicurwin wrote:

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Baki wrote:

i daresay the current currency system prevents trading more than it encourages it.

i found this medicore item.. what can i demand for it? at best i will get a transmution orb for it. i dont need a transmution orb at all, i only need my alchemist orb -> item trashed, no trade

With Gold: I trade it for 2 gold. this will bring me a bit closer to my alchemist orb.

WOW! I haven't read every post yet, but even if this is corrected its so flawed that it deserves to be corrected again. One could just as easily say, "i found this medicore item.. what can i demand for it? at best i will get is 2 goldfor it. i dont need 2 gold at all, i only need my alchemist orb -> item trashed, no trade


With the currency items: I trade it for a transmutation orb. this will bring me a bit closer to my alchemist orb."

Honestly, that was just sad.

Go read the dev diary. One of their stated goals is a lack of trade parity so that you can't ever know what anything is worth, and by extension, have no idea whether that Transmutation Orb is bringing you closer to an Alchemist Orb. For all you know, the guy who has the Alchemist Orb you want only wants Scrolls of Wisdom, and that Transmutation Orb is completely worthless to you. Price fluctuations are far less of an issue with gold as a currency.

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Drunknmunkys wrote:

This thread is one big /facepalm...

Why introduce a middleman in gold? I want chaos orbs. I find leet bow. I decide I want 4 chaos orbs for it. Either I'll get 4 chaos orbs for it or the economy will tell me that 4 chaos orbs is unrealistic for that item, so I change my demands.

Drunkmunkys, the question is what happens when 4 chaos orbs IS reasonable for the bow, but none of the people who want it have exactly four chaos orbs. What happens if someone wants to trade five Alchemy orbs? You could wait and wait and wait and wait and eventually find someone who will take you up on your offer, but it will take you far more time than it would in a gold system. Waiting around is not a game mechanic that enhances enjoyment of the game.

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lowlightt wrote:

Your problem is your not understanding subjective worth. You say what if 4 chaos orbs is a reasonable price the only person who can decide that is the person you are actively bartering with. It's not a matter of what the item is worth, its what the item is worth to you and what the item is worth to him.

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With out a gold system we don't have set prices on gear and loot. We don't have people saying that's not worth 50k gold or that's not worth 100k gold. Instead we have a complex system of services that we trade for goods. As the consumables are in them selves services. Town portals, item identification, item rerolling, these are services that one would spend money on in town for. What you are trading for items is service instead of money.

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Person A I need someone to reroll this item for me.

Person B I can do that but I need a 5 slot bow in exchange.

Person A Then I want to reroll it 10 times

Person B No I'll reroll it 5 times

Person A Fine how about 8 times

Person B we have a deal.

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We are trading services for items instead of cash. It fits with the game lore and makes a complex barter system that rewards people who like to play at economies. When you have a gold standard in most games, inflation eventually sets in and ALL RARE ITEMS SELL FOR MAXIMUM amount of gold a player can carry.

Then eventually items that are super rare players can't afford them. If you already buy and sell near the maximum amount of money and money isn't that hard to come by then no one really cares about it. Players that live in the end game realm don't care about money because they have so much of it. Thus in the end the only thing that holds any trade value are the items them selves.

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All GGG is doing is taking the useless end game money system out of the game. By exchanging gold for a service instead as currency you now have items that themselves are used and have value. Rerolling an item with a good chance of special properties in itself has worth thus using it as currency works. People living in endgame need the currency to make there items and they also need to hold some back to buy items in trade. This in itself prevents over-saturation.

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The Traditional Gold Economy

Gold has several consequences in an action RPG setting:

Gold Sinks: Games that use gold incur high inflation unless they have sufficient gold sinks in the form of mandatory expenses such as item repairs, paying to revive characters or continuously buying potions. These sinks are generally an unnecessary obligation and can be frustrating if a player is low on gold.
Gold Farmers: Online RPGs often get infested by gold farmers who play the game to accumulate large quantities of gold that are then sold to other players. If gold is the main currency, it’s very simple to perform gold-accumulating tasks to supply the secondary market.
Wealth Determinism: Earning a steady quantity of gold from monsters killed helps to re-enforce the treadmill feeling that many online RPGs suffer. People’s net worth in gold is directly proportional to the amount of time they have invested playing. This highly linear wealth gain can cause a sense of disillusionment when trying to save up a large amount of gold for a purchase – it’s apparent to the player how long it’s going to take to grind for it.
Trade Parity: With a common gold currency, it’s easy for players to know and demand the current market value for an item. If the trade occurs at a value that differs from the current perceived market value, then one of the players feels that they got ripped off.

We examined how a currency item system affects the previously mentioned consequences of a gold based economy:

Sinks: By having every currency item inherently useful to improve a character, each currency item is its own sink. In our experience with Path of Exile, a majority of currency item trades end with the item being immediately consumed by the recipient. This also means that unnecessary gold sinks like repairing items can potentially be removed from the game.
Gold Farmers: Although it’s still possible to farm currency items with unskilled labour, it’s substantially more complicated. Having to manage an inventory of dozens of different items with fluctuating rarities is a much larger ordeal that is difficult to deploy en-masse. Real players won't have a problem with this because they know more about the game.
Wealth Determinism: A character’s wealth is determined by the sum of both his available currency items and also any items that he may have for trade. The unpredictable acquisition of both currency items and trade-worthy equipment helps mask the treadmill feeling that occurs when you can predict your gold gain per quest or per minute.
Trade Parity: The relative value of currency items fluctuates constantly as new and interesting applications are found for them. It’s also subjective for each player – they all have own current item goals and each currency item may help them achieve that goal in a different way. Players can accept these barter trades because they either meet an immediate need for a currency item to use or because the items are of roughly equal value and can be later traded to someone else.