Re-Rethinking Gold as a Currency

There is a lot of discussion in here that seems to be running in circles. You are basing a gold system equal in value to that which would be found in diablo or even a standard MMO. Yes, then you can go to a merchant, or even another player and get the crafting materials (in this instance orbs) that you desire to get the ultimate item you want.

However, remember this game is approaching the Action RPG MMO angle completely different. But also take into consideration that it is a free to play game. The Dev's have never discussed an Auction House, but I am sure there will be some sort of a item shop (cash shop) in the game. The concept of the orbs as currency places the value of an item solely up to the person trading it. If a buyer desires the item and does not agree with the orbs that are being asked for he can counter offer or refuse. Then post which orbs he is offering for which item and maybe get it from another player. Or a player can trade 1 orb of augmentation for 5 orbs of transmutation if he so desires to accumulate the orbs required to get the item he wants.

Gold in this game WILL take away the player to player interaction on the trade market. As for needlessly grinding for items...

Covert wrote:
I agree with Whiteboy about the farming. What is there to stop people farming the ledge on normal with 150% quantity at level 24 getting thousands of cheap orbs and buying something rare (exalted, divine, mirror) This would lead to hyper-inflation and those rare orbs would no longer be rare.

Diminishing returns is the prevention of this. As a player levels and gets out of a range, I believe that it is currently +/- 3 levels to the monster level, than you will begin to receive less and less valuable and quantity of items. This will help to reduce the rare items that players will be getting, although I would say that the diminishing returns may need to be tweaked to ensure that players DO in fact get less items.

i daresay the current currency system prevents trading more than it encourages it.

i found this medicore item.. what can i demand for it? at best i will get a transmution orb for it. i dont need a transmution orb at all, i only need my alchemist orb -> item trashed, no trade

With Gold: I trade it for 2 gold. this will bring me a bit closer to my alchemist orb.

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Wittgenstein wrote:

Its a barter system, so things are worth how the person trading values them.

You're describing Economic Utility, which has absolutely nothing to do with the monetary system. Whether the game uses barter has nothing to do with the fact that utility is always subjective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility

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Strill wrote:

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Wittgenstein wrote:

Its a barter system, so things are worth how the person trading values them.

You're describing Economic Utility, which is always present regardless of the monetary system. Whether the game uses barter has nothing to do with the fact that utility is always subjective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility

You cited an economics page...


Utility isn't always subjective. I need to get from CA to NY in as short amount of time as possible, my options are

1. walking.
2. driving.
3. flying

3 will always win.


Anywho, it doesn't matter. the game doesn't need gold. I think people should enjoy the game for what it is, rather then constantly try to turn it into the millions of other games out there.

Also, with most MMO/multiplayer RPG's... eventually the best "currency" is always items. Take D2... Runes/gems/high level items, are what's valued.

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Tarlin wrote:

The concept of the orbs as currency places the value of an item solely up to the person trading it.

Right. Let's just throw supply and demand out the window while we're at it. Quit kidding yourself. The laws of economics are the same with a monetary system or a bater system. People will value an item at either the market value or their own utility, whichever is higher. The existence of gold or orbs doesn't change jack in that regard.

The difference between a monetary system and a barter system is that there's a higher transaction cost in a barter system, which discourages people from trading with others.

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If a buyer desires the item and does not agree with the orbs that are being asked for he can counter offer or refuse. Then post which orbs he is offering for which item and maybe get it from another player. Or a player can trade 1 orb of augmentation for 5 orbs of transmutation if he so desires to accumulate the orbs required to get the item he wants.

Gold in this game WILL take away the player to player interaction on the trade market. As for needlessly grinding for items...

GOOD! That's the whole point of money! Gold makes trades MORE EFFICIENT. Instead of wasting time converting between currency, people get what they want and can spend more time interacting with other players.

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Tarlin wrote:

Diminishing returns is the prevention of this. As a player levels and gets out of a range, I believe that it is currently +/- 3 levels to the monster level, than you will begin to receive less and less valuable and quantity of items. This will help to reduce the rare items that players will be getting, although I would say that the diminishing returns may need to be tweaked to ensure that players DO in fact get less items.

I know this, but that has not stopped me doing it, see what 3 hrs @ lvl 26 snared me:

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/13101/highlight/

I levelled up about 30% of a level in 3hrs.

The part I was refferring to was if this 'gold' system was implemented what would stop people sellng thousands of lesser currency for 1 gold each to buy a mirror etc.

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Wittgenstein wrote:

Utility isn't always subjective. I need to get from CA to NY in as short amount of time as possible, my options are

1. walking.
2. driving.
3. flying

3 will always win.

i know.. it doesnt matter but its still subjective :)

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Wittgenstein wrote:

Also, with most MMO/multiplayer RPG's... eventually the best "currency" is always items. Take D2... Runes/gems/high level items, are what's valued.

Gold failed as a currency in d2 because it was useless. What if gold had been more rare in d2 and you could have bought gems and runes with it?

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Covert wrote:

The part I was refferring to was if this 'gold' system was implemented what would stop people sellng thousands of lesser currency for 1 gold each to buy a mirror etc.

Nothing. Can you see the inflation in the current system already? You regard some of the lesser items as useless and even a thousand of them aren't worth a single good one. If that is not inflation :)

And what prevents you of farming 20 stacks of ID scrolls and trading them for an alchemy orb atm? I saw that trade already.

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Wittgenstein wrote:

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Strill wrote:

"

Wittgenstein wrote:

Its a barter system, so things are worth how the person trading values them.

You're describing Economic Utility, which is always present regardless of the monetary system. Whether the game uses barter has nothing to do with the fact that utility is always subjective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility

You cited an economics page...


Utility isn't always subjective. I need to get from CA to NY in as short amount of time as possible, my options are

1. walking.
2. driving.
3. flying

3 will always win.

Utility is ALWAYS subjective. The premise of your statement is that you want to get from CA to NY as fast as possible. That desire in and of itself is subjective. Not everyone cares about getting there as fast as possible. Some people would rather take sightseeing detours and will drive. Some people would rather not spend money and will walk. Heck, you yourself totally ignored the possibility of strapping yourself to a rocket, presumably because you care more about your own well-being than how fast you get from CA to NY, which is once again subjective.

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Also, with most MMO/multiplayer RPG's... eventually the best "currency" is always items. Take D2... Runes/gems/high level items, are what's valued.

Gold in D2 is worthless because of government price ceilings in the form of a cap on how much gold you can carry (and by extension trade) at any given time.

Gold in Guild Wars is worthless because of government price ceilings in the form of a limit on how much gold you can trade at any given time.

Seeing a pattern here? Currency only ever becomes a problem when the developers try to screw with it instead of letting the market regulate itself.

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Baki wrote:

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Wittgenstein wrote:

Also, with most MMO/multiplayer RPG's... eventually the best "currency" is always items. Take D2... Runes/gems/high level items, are what's valued.

Gold failed as a currency in d2 because it was useless. What if gold had been more rare in d2 and you could have bought gems and runes with it?

Gold was not worthless because of how common it was, it was worthless because it could not be used to trade due to the carrying capacity limit. Making it more rare would only have partially solved this issue by indirectly increasing the carrying capacity.

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Strill wrote:

The difference between a monetary system and a barter system is that there's a higher transaction cost in a barter system, which discourages people from trading with others.

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Gold in this game WILL take away the player to player interaction on the trade market.

GOOD! That's the whole point of money! Gold makes trades MORE EFFICIENT. Instead of wasting time converting between currency, people get what they want and can spend more time interacting with other players.

Gold does make trades more efficient, but it also makes them more impersonal - when was the last time you thanked someone for their item (or their currency) in an auction house? Or, for that matter, the last time you actually talked to a person you were transacting with?

The argument for economic efficiency in particular doesn't strike me as a useful one - what problem does greater efficiency solve in this game? The effect is to make it easier for traders get more stuff to kill monsters faster (and then get more stuff), but if you make that too efficient it becomes harder and harder to balance.

This is just yet another thread where someone requests a gold currency, then someone links a wikipedia page which throws the whole thread down the drain. Everyone has a big head that can understand economic theories. There have been numerous threads with dozens of pages exactly like this one in the past, and none of them have convinced GGG to institute a gold currency. They understand supply and demand and utility just as well as the rest of us. Arguing about it isn't going to do anything but adjust egos.

The only fact here is that GGG doesn't want PoE to have gold, and they have given us their reasons for that decision.

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Raxlea wrote:

If an auction house were ever to be implemented I don't see why they couldn't make it work with the currency items as they currently are. Just post an item, and put checks by the types of currency you want, and type in the amount next to each one.

That's not an auction; it's consignment. Auctions allow bids, not just a set price. The problem with bidding with consumable currency is the lack of set ratios, meaning the seller would have to manually approve each bid before another can be placed. That, or the bids would have to be limited to 1-2 specific currencies on each sale, which stifles the whole process.