Re-Rethinking Gold as a Currency

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lupasvasile wrote:

It seems we have reached a standstill. It's funny how the people of this thread, each, try to defend their preference but fail to convince the other why their choice is the best.
Same thing happens on a lot of real life issues. No wonder the world is so messed up.

Maybe we should just let the devs decide. everyone wins >.>

Maybe if some people would address the devs arguments rather than insisting that the devs are best with no explanation, we would see progress in this debate.


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Bottom line:

#1. The devs want benefits associated with a strangled economy for reasons specified in their dev diary, but do not explicitly acknowledge this.
#2. The devs take the benefits associated with a strangled economy and falsely link them with a barter system.
#3. The devs falsely claim that Diablo 2 and Guild Wars used pseudo-currencies because gold in those games was a fiat currency when in actuality they used it to circumvent restrictions on the amount of gold which could be traded at once.

What will happen? None of the devs' stated goals will be met:

Sinks: Some items will be used far more than others. Players will eventually resort to throwing away certain types of currency items because they are so inflated.
Gold Farmers: Gold farmers will find farming in PoE no more difficult than in any other game.
Wealth Determinism: Exchange rates will establish themselves. There's also the high likelihood that one or two currency items will become the game's primary currency. This will allow players to easily calculate their current wealth. You can see these systems in other pseudo-currency economies, notably Guild Wars.
Traded Parity: Middlemen will appear. They will make trading easier and cheaper for all parties and will profit themselves. They will stabilize the prices of items. They will not stabilize prices as well as they could in a gold market, however, so there will be many more bad trades than there would be in a gold economy, increasing player frustration.


The devs lose on EVERY SINGLE COUNT! Do you not think that's worth discussing?

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Sickness wrote:

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lupasvasile wrote:

So by your logic, stating your preferences automatically discards other people's choices and makes you selfish?...Noted; guess I learn new things every day.

No, but stating that your preference is the opposite of everyone elses and insist of wanting the game to be based on it.

But... That's what you're doing in this thread. You've acknowledged that your preference is against the majority, but you're insisting that the game's currency be based on your opinion.

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Sickness wrote:

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lupasvasile wrote:

And from what I've seen, more people prefer the orbs, while only a small portion would like gold also.

I think a lack of understanding is behind that.
This thread shows that alot of people does not understand the benefits of a uniform currency.

That's not it at all; we're not ignorant. We fully understand what the uniform currency entails. We just don't want it. I could just as fairly say that this thread shows some people don't understand the reasons for not having a uniform currency.

Also, you missed every single point in my last post.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

But... That's what you're doing in this thread. You've acknowledged that your preference is against the majority, but you're insisting that the game's currency be based on your opinion.

Wrong again. I have clearly stated that I think most people want this.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

That's not it at all; we're not ignorant. We fully understand what the uniform currency entails. We just don't want it. I could just as fairly say that this thread shows some people don't understand the reasons for not having a uniform currency.

No everyone does not fully understand.

I would very much like to have more understanding of why you don't want a uniform currency, most of what I have seen so far completely ignores economical principles or have been just pure fallacies.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

Also, you missed every single point in my last post.

Nice. Keep avoiding to adress my arguments.

By the way: "Sure, they all have relative drop rates, but they don't have relative values. The entire system is built around the core concept that X doesn't always equal 2Y."

Look in the new stores. :)

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Funny thing is that the OPs suggestion would make the game LESS like the game it is compared to the most: D2.
The trading in that game is much like in PoE in many aspects.

Kinda crushes the uniqueness argument...

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Sickness wrote:

Nice. Keep avoiding to adress my arguments.

All of your arguments against my last post were misdirected by your misunderstanding of all my points, so why would I argue against them?

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Sickness wrote:

Look in the new stores. :)

You do realize that I played 0.9.5 before you did, right? I was aware of vendors offering currency at fixed rates before I made that post, and it still holds true. Those rates are meant to be options for players to get currency at a sacrificial exchange rate and are not representative of defined exchange values for every trade. Go to one vendor and buy a Blacksmith's Whetstone for 3 Armourer's Scrap, then go to another vendor and sell the 1 Blacksmith's Whetstone for 1 Armourer's Scrap. Don't even try to imply that the vendor rates are X = 2Y, because it's simply not true or intended to be so.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

All of your arguments against my last post were misdirected by your misunderstanding of all my points, so why would I argue against them?

I didn't misunderstand you. I was correcting your misconceptions about economic principles and pointing out the flaws in your extremely biased comparisons.

Saying that I don't understand instead of providing arguments just shows that you are running out of steam.

A short writeup that should cover most, if not all, arguments against the OP.

What if they make it so that you still find orbs but you can turn orbs into gold and gold into orbs at NPCs.
The supposed greater thrill of finding an orb with a particular name over finding a huge pile of gold would remain. People who prefer not to use gold would never have to see it.
People who prefer to trade with gold can do so.


The OPs suggestion would make the game LESS like the game it is compared to the most: D2.
The trading in that game is much like in PoE in many aspects.
Just because there exsists a uniforum currency doesn't mean that PoE will become more like D2 just because it also uses one.
In D2 gold is implemented in a horrible way so it's not good to trade with. It lacks the basic properties that a currency requires.
Trading is mostly done with runes, which is not so different from trading with orbs. (Runes are consumed when get better random modifiers).

I agree that it important for a game to stand out from the crowd, but it should do so with good things, not bad things.


Lorewise gold can represent the stuff that orbs are made off. That way it wouldn't be a fiat currency lorewise or for players.


Orbs in the curret system do have relative values. To say anything else shows a lack of understanding of Supply and Demand and Consumer Rationality. This is economics 101.
This will manifest more clearly when there are more actors on the market and more trades are being done.


The points the devs made was not against a uniform currency system like the OP have proposed.
Therefor they are irrelevant. If you feel that they contains something that is relevant you have to show us why.

I could keep going but it's getting late here...

I call to anyone to adress these points with rational arguments.

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Sickness wrote:

What if they make it so that you still find orbs but you can turn orbs into gold and gold into orbs at NPCs.
The supposed greater thrill of finding an orb with a particular name over finding a huge pile of gold would remain. People who prefer not to use gold would never have to see it.
People who prefer to trade with gold can do so.

I still have to ask: What is the reason for a redundant currency that exists simply to exist and get in the way of the current system? It still dictates relative values, which carries on to the next point:

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sickness wrote:

Orbs in the curret system do have relative values. To say anything else shows a lack of understanding of Supply and Demand and Consumer Rationality. This is economics 101.
This will manifest more clearly when there are more actors on the market and more trades are being done.

This is the main point you've been missing the entire time. Orbs in PoE have relative values based on what the players determine, not what the game tells us. Each player may have his own relative values for orbs based on his needs and desires. This is not possible with a uniform currency where X gold = Y orb from a vendor. The game would be dictating exchange rates, taking that power away from the community where it's intended to be.

You cannot possibly balance availability of individual currency using the proposed system. Currently, if there is inflation of a single orb, they can simply lower the drop rate. How would you balance over-abundance (through NPC purchase) in the proposed system? You can't just lower the drop rate of the orb's respective gold amount, because gold is still gold to the vendor regardless of the amount it originally dropped in. Limit the rate at which players can purchase certain orbs? Be ready for a huge outcry, as that would undermine the entire proposed system.

Players, as a community, will optimize the trading process among ourselves regardless of the system in place. The main issue with the proposed system is that it adds unnecessary confusion and effort to the NPC trading system, and has absolutely no merits in that aspect. It only makes some trade between players more efficient, at the cost of ruining the entire system in favor of one that removes social interaction in trades and makes it far too easy to over-supply orbs.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

I still have to ask: What is the reason for a redundant currency that exists simply to exist and get in the way of the current system? It still dictates relative values, which carries on to the next point:

The reason?
Making the market more efficient.
Trading will be faster, price setting will be better, inflation easier to control.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

This is the main point you've been missing the entire time. Orbs in PoE have relative values based on what the players determine, not what the game tells us.

No I'm not missing that point! You are missing the point that the prices the game tells us will be directly based on the players.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

Each player may have his own relative values for orbs based on his needs and desires.

That's not how it works in a functioning market. Aslong as they don't completely cripple all orb trading, market-wide relative vales will be set, and it is in the players best selfinterest to stick to that.

If my own relative value says that 1 alch = 2 jewlers but the market value says 1 alch = 3 jewlers it would not be rational to sell an alch for 2 jewlers.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

You cannot possibly balance availability of individual currency using the proposed system. Currently, if there is inflation of a single orb, they can simply lower the drop rate. How would you balance over-abundance (through NPC purchase) in the proposed system? You can't just lower the drop rate of the orb's respective gold amount, because gold is still gold to the vendor regardless of the amount it originally dropped in. Limit the rate at which players can purchase certain orbs? Be ready for a huge outcry, as that would undermine the entire proposed system.

You change the gold value of the orbs.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

Players, as a community, will optimize the trading process among ourselves regardless of the system in place. The main issue with the proposed system is that it adds unnecessary confusion and effort to the NPC trading system, and has absolutely no merits in that aspect. It only makes some trade between players more efficient, at the cost of ruining the entire system in favor of one that removes social interaction in trades and makes it far too easy to over-supply orbs.

Adds what confusion?? If anything, it removes confusion.

For every social interaction it removes two social interactons will occur due to the increased number of people trading.