Endgame vs. levelling

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Boem wrote:

There could be skulls that elevate a zone lvl to lvl 70 for example.

Idea sounds nice first; but I expect 'some abusable issues' if this doesnt prevent from pushing, as example, Piety in cruel (or even in normal!) to map-level... low/no resistance penalty combined with no drop and no xp penalty, really? Sounds like farmer's heaven to me... ;)

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NeroNoah wrote:

So will you say the randomization in maps is the same than repeating quests?

its not just 'repeating quests'; I cant compare to 'real roguelikes', but APRG like D1 and all its followers are about grinding - for loot, for xp, for fun (just monster bashing), and even by design: just from the fact that instances reset after a delay...

The triple 'usage' of the 'whole' core game as difficulty loop seems minor to me against the 'real grinding' ^^

This is good - I hope more people suggest things like this.

I am all for a Merciless difficulty that is pretty much static in level, similar to D2 Hell or D3 original Inferno (pre-release).

I'm glad that you mentioned D2 mod: Median XL. that game has one of the best (if not the best) end game contents out there. I've played that D2 mod for 2 years and still haven't done all the Uberquests. All of the Uberquests are gated by Difficulty (SUPER DUPER MEGA ULTRA difficult quest), not by RNG. Speaking of RNG, the drop rate of end game unique ("Sacred Unique") in that game is very high so it's much easier to play self-found. And the Crafting System is much much easier to use, this helps self-found player even more.

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Mr_Cee wrote:

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Boem wrote:

There could be skulls that elevate a zone lvl to lvl 70 for example.

Idea sounds nice first; but I expect 'some abusable issues' if this doesnt prevent from pushing, as example, Piety in cruel (or even in normal!) to map-level... low/no resistance penalty combined with no drop and no xp penalty, really? Sounds like farmer's heaven to me... ;)

I know, i only utilized it as an example of what is possible under such a system, it is not unthinkable to restrict this skulls usage to merciless for example.

The aim would be to allow act1/2/3 to be farmed similar to act4 and allow players to farm divination cards without a penalty to their drop rates. This increases the farmable content in merciless 4x.

Their could be a similar skull for normal and cruel that pushes the content to lvl 35 and 55 respectively etc. The aim would be to enhance the content and allow more possibility's to a player.

Customization of the story content is the key-aim of my suggestion.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Mr_Cee wrote:

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NeroNoah wrote:

So will you say the randomization in maps is the same than repeating quests?

its not just 'repeating quests'; I cant compare to 'real roguelikes', but APRG like D1 and all its followers are about grinding - for loot, for xp, for fun (just monster bashing), and even by design: just from the fact that instances reset after a delay...

The triple 'usage' of the 'whole' core game as difficulty loop seems minor to me against the 'real grinding' ^^

I guess is subjective. I think the opposite is true. Given that people are more time at maps than the rest of the game...

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Koksii wrote:

The leveling process is not pointless. You can find crafting materials (even exalteds and mirrors), you can feel how your character gets stronger with every level and so on. D3 has non of this imo. D3 feels boring until you found your 6piece sets and then you almost cant find upgrades anymore, so the only thing left to do is speedgrift for xp. There is also no trading so XP farming is the only endgame in D3 right now.

You can farm Voll with MF for exalted worthy uniques and the brittle emperor card (i found 2 of them within 2 days and some T1 uniques too). So you dont even have to play maps if you dont need a high level chracter and you just want to become wealthy. I agree that running bosses like Malachai (merciless) should be more rewarding though. More endgame stuff like Atziri would also be great.

I agree levelling is not pointless, but it could be done better. I generally like it until you start cruel, then it starts to not make that much sense (awakening in the beach again? Deja vù).

Before Voll you had Piety and Dominus. Even if you can go and farm act IV, the current rebalance wasted Act III completely (like Act II was). I think that GGG should rework the world to avoid that kind of waste, so the flat level suggestion for an horizontal world, and better rewards.


For everyone else: keep the opinions coming, if you agree or disagree. Thanks for reading!

I for one would simply like for there to be alternatives for leveling, farming, etc after one completes all acts in normal.

After running so many alts through normal (I think around 10 or so thus far this league?) I would like for there be something different then just starting the story over once I get the energy to go into cruel.

Kinda why I like D3 adventure mode atm, I do not have to go ride on the themepark roller coaster. I can just go out and do what I want.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Mr_Cee wrote:

The triple 'usage' of the 'whole' core game as difficulty loop seems minor to me against the 'real grinding' ^^

I guess is subjective. I think the opposite is true.

Of course its a point of view ^^ But I dont see the logic behind that 'opposition':

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NeroNoah wrote:

Given that people are more time at maps than the rest of the game...

eg: if most of time a char is active in maps, then its even more true that having the 'three turns' (or more realistic: 2,5 turns) trough wraeclast before mapping is only a minor thing?!

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I agree levelling is not pointless, but it could be done better. I generally like it until you start cruel, then it starts to not make that much sense (awakening in the beach again? Deja vù).

It has multiple, (IMHO) needed purposes:
normal serves as an introduction into the game and its basic mechanics. Its needed to offer a chance to visit all areas even for new/unexperienced players (that maybe face the genre for the first time...) - Imagine the perfect, linear, consistent world: how many of us (the players base as a whole) would never ever see Malachai or even Dominus? It has a huge impact on a game's publicity and reputation if ('suddenly') many players are limited to half or less of the 'real' content.

Then: you need space (areas) to make a balanced levelling possible. And its (IMHO again) not desired to have areas blown up to a crossing time of 30+ minutes; nor its possible to add 'enough' side areas to fill the gap of cutting the higher diff's away. GGG already made this move after CB, with the addition of act 3 they shifted POE from 8 'acts' (2 at 4 diff's) to 9 (with removing one diff and a slightly rebalance of the 'rest'). I expect this will happen again with more added content, but with act 4 'alone' it would have pulled it back down to 8 while it should be an increase. And I doubt that we'll ever see a POE with just one difficulty/playthrough.

@Charan: Am I missing something? I mean, the previous post asks about levelling, and that's a part of what I wrote about.

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Mr_Cee wrote:

Of course its a point of view ^^ But I dont see the logic behind that 'opposition':

Subjective, again. It's ok if you disagree. There was a stop point at the end with the best things and different things (alvl 85 with Ubers). People rushed to it. That's it.

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Mr_Cee wrote:

eg: if most of time a char is active in maps, then its even more true that having the 'three turns' (or more realistic: 2,5 turns) trough wraeclast before mapping is only a minor thing?!

True, but it's not just about levelling, it's about making the acts a proper parallel endgame that is as useful as maps too. Not wasting the world areas. I think the two aspects can be solved with one system.

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Mr_Cee wrote:

It has multiple, (IMHO) needed purposes:
normal serves as an introduction into the game and its basic mechanics. Its needed to offer a chance to visit all areas even for new/unexperienced players (that maybe face the genre for the first time...) - Imagine the perfect, linear, consistent world: how many of us (the players base as a whole) would never ever see Malachai or even Dominus? It has a huge impact on a game's publicity and reputation if ('suddenly') many players are limited to half or less of the 'real' content.

There are many things wrong there about what I said. I agree about normal, but if you read the alternatives I proposed, I'm not saying normal should go, I just said that after that repeating the difficulties just exacerbates the repetition. I said there should be alternatives, or better, a replacement. I'm not talking about extending the first playthrough until merciless, then you would have the problems you wrote there.

This article partially explains why would be that way. Roughly: themepark is good for guiding, free style/sandbox is good for everything else.

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Mr_Cee wrote:

Then: you need space (areas) to make a balanced levelling possible. And its (IMHO again) not desired to have areas blown up to a crossing time of 30+ minutes; nor its possible to add 'enough' side areas to fill the gap of cutting the higher diff's away. GGG already made this move after CB, with the addition of act 3 they shifted POE from 8 'acts' (2 at 4 diff's) to 9 (with removing one diff and a slightly rebalance of the 'rest'). I expect this will happen again with more added content, but with act 4 'alone' it would have pulled it back down to 8 while it should be an increase. And I doubt that we'll ever see a POE with just one difficulty/playthrough.

I repeat again, it's not about having one difficulty alone. Please read again what I wrote: One basic playthrough, relatively short, then you play relatively free and at higher levels you go to maps if you wish.

Side areas are not the only way to do it (although they would be nice, miniexpansion material like SOTV, in the spirit of Median XL's Uberquests); randomized quests (like in FM) or giving maps early are other ways to do it, and GGG has shown is possible for most of them. It would take time to flesh it out.

While I accept disagreements, at least you should disagree what I really said, else it'll be pointless.