Endgame vs. levelling

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NeroNoah wrote:
Well, that sounds good as an addition to make the levelling/farming better, but it doesn't tackle some big issues like the wasteful rebalancing and horizontal progression.


There could be skulls that elevate a zone lvl to lvl 70 for example.

It's only limited by the imagination and what is possible with the engine.

The story content itself being repeated 3x will be a non-issue if you can manipulate the experience to an extend that it no longer is "running the same thing 3x in a row".

Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
I say: cut the middle man, don't run the same quests three times. It's repetitive. If you put make up to a pig, it's still a pig.
Add a Forsaken Masters questline
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2297942
"
NeroNoah wrote:
I say: cut the middle man, don't run the same quests three times. It's repetitive. If you put make up to a pig, it's still a pig.


No offense, but being repetitive as an argument? For a game like this...

uhm, okay.

Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
Put fishing in the game.

Put mining in the game.

Easy false progression.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1394759 - Suggestion for beginner tutorial.
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Boem wrote:
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NeroNoah wrote:
I say: cut the middle man, don't run the same quests three times. It's repetitive. If you put make up to a pig, it's still a pig.


No offense, but being repetitive as an argument? For a game like this...

uhm, okay.

Peace,

-Boem-


So will you say the randomization in maps is the same than repeating quests? I mean, yes, eventually everything will get repetitive, but that degree of randomization helps to delay the fact for a while.
There is not such a thing as infinite content, but roguelikes and their descendants have shown the way.

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Exialis wrote:
Put fishing in the game.

Put mining in the game.

Easy false progression.


What about Krillson? (just joking, :P)
Add a Forsaken Masters questline
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2297942
Last edited by NeroNoah on Sep 28, 2015, 5:35:30 PM
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NeroNoah wrote:
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Boem wrote:
"
NeroNoah wrote:
I say: cut the middle man, don't run the same quests three times. It's repetitive. If you put make up to a pig, it's still a pig.


No offense, but being repetitive as an argument? For a game like this...

uhm, okay.

Peace,

-Boem-


So will you say the randomization in maps is the same than repeating quests? I mean, yes, eventually everything will get repetitive, but that degree of randomization helps to delay the fact for a while.
There is not such a thing as infinite content, but roguelikes and their descendants have shown the way.


And when i suggest a way to randomize all content pre-maps you say "but dude, dressing up a pig with make up is still a pig eh".

What is it that you want? And be honest, because saying A, then getting a way to reach A and going "but actually i want B" is sort of fruitless.

Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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Boem wrote:
And when i suggest a way to randomize all content pre-maps you say "but dude, dressing up a pig with make up is still a pig eh".

What is it that you want? And be honest, because saying A, then getting a way to reach A and going "but actually i want B" is sort of fruitless.

Peace,

-Boem-


My point is that randomizing how quests are presented still doesn't change the fact that you run the same quests. I think (and you can disagree) that the problem is the difficulty structure, and while I think your suggestion would help, the base problem would still be there (for example, having to do big rebalances for each act).

What would I want? Randomized quests, side areas, early mapping (maybe), etc. Perhaps is not the right way to do it, but I think the game would benefit from a consistent world, one that feels a little more alive and less static. Not just for levelling, but as way to make the acts truly parallel to maps rather than the scrappy replacement. This is less wasteful. Torchlight and Diablo 3 have brought something to the table about this, so this is not really that outlandish.

It's not just about doing things in a repetitive way, but about saving resources.

I don't think I understand the last paragraph fully.
Add a Forsaken Masters questline
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2297942
Last edited by NeroNoah on Sep 28, 2015, 6:28:20 PM
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NeroNoah wrote:
"
Boem wrote:
And when i suggest a way to randomize all content pre-maps you say "but dude, dressing up a pig with make up is still a pig eh".

What is it that you want? And be honest, because saying A, then getting a way to reach A and going "but actually i want B" is sort of fruitless.

Peace,

-Boem-


My point is that randomizing how quests are presented still doesn't change the fact that you run the same quests. I think (and you can disagree) that the problem is the difficulty structure, and while I think your suggestion would help, the base problem would still be there (for example, having to do big rebalances for each act).

What would I want? Randomized quests, side areas, early mapping (maybe), etc. Perhaps is not the right way to do it, but I think the game would benefit from a consistent world, one that feels a little more alive and less static. Not just for levelling, but as way to make the acts truly parallel to maps rather than the scrappy replacement. This is less wasteful. Torchlight and Diablo 3 have brought something to the table about this, so this is not really that outlandish.

It's not just about doing things in a repetitive way, but about saving resources.

I don't think I understand the last paragraph fully.


Do you think shortening some content to introduce a new act takes more resources then creating a fully randomized world?

Yes they need to do re-balances when a new act arrives, but compared to the alternative you suggest (which might have been on the table at one point in the GGG office?) it seems a no brainer when it comes to production and funds in my opinion.

Further more, while your point holds true currently, the projection is to remove all difficulty's and have 10 act's (eventually lel) removing the nuisance you experience today.(the repetition of acts/quest's)

I'm not opposed to removing cruel for example, which i am also sure was on the table when act4 was under production, but apparently didn't make "the cut".

What D3 did (i assume you are referring to the adventure mode?) is implement 7 identical quest's per act, 9 zones(waypoints) i think and simply randomize what quest's you get. That's still repetition, it's just guised by moving the same quest to another location and giving you only 5 of the 7 possible quest's at a time.

I can't tell at this point how many "kill the gaurds" missions i have gotten in D3 adventure mode or "kill boss X". It might feel random, which means they did a good job, but it's still repetition.

They also don't have an economy to take into consideration anymore so they can simply allow content to scale with you. Which is impossible in the current model of PoE.(leveling tactics, divination card drops, experience penalty rules, competition etc)

Keep in mind, i am not opposed to what you are saying here :). I'm just looking at it from a different set of eyes.

Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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Boem wrote:
Do you think shortening some content to introduce a new act takes more resources then creating a fully randomized world?

Yes they need to do re-balances when a new act arrives, but compared to the alternative you suggest (which might have been on the table at one point in the GGG office?) it seems a no brainer when it comes to production and funds in my opinion.


Well, I think that short term will be more effort, but long term could make things easier. I can't really know for sure. It could be that it's not worth the effort, but for a theoretical ten act plan, it should make things easier (think about what will happen, when, let's say, we have five to nine acts). Also, it's not just about levelling, but about making the acts a real alternative (thing GGG has tried to push already).

Repetition is unavoidable of course, you just have to make it beautiful. This game is a weird one, even using tricks (like the whole skinner box thing) tries to do something meaningful from it.

Just to know: what do you think about Master missions and corrupted areas? Did you play Median XL? Would you like early game maps?
Add a Forsaken Masters questline
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2297942
Last edited by NeroNoah on Sep 28, 2015, 9:22:29 PM
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NeroNoah wrote:

Just to know: what do you think about Master missions and corrupted areas? Did you play Median XL? Would you like early game maps?


That's a giant question though :)

For the most part i consider them incredible creative solutions to existing problems at the time.
(to condense a page in a single sentence)

started typing...a little page
Game-play-wise i skip them almost entirely in the first week of a league, since i like to join the whole "push push push HypUUUUU", so masters are done if required in the push and vaal instances are similarly done if i require anything from it or need the lootz while progressing.

But i like that they exist and that they provide an option to players. After the initial hype settles and i get into my "alterino" mode i do explore them fully and enjoy them.
(i usually make a single main and 4 to 5 alts in a single league)

I did not play median XL, so not much to say on that subject, feel free to educate me about it though or provide some info about it.

Early game maps, i consider it a cop-out. It would work and entertain players no doubt, but i think there are far more elegant solution or entirely new mechanics to be discovered. My altar suggestion is a similar thing while keeping the uniqueness of maps intact.

If players start to map when normal ends for example, there is a chance they will burn-out a lot sooner. Currently people progress to maps and then (like this thread suggests) the game changes entirely. This creates an additional layer of motivation in my opinion for players.

Ultimately i have no issue with the act's being repeated, what does bother me is that it lacks impact from a player's perspective.
(resistances are reduced and damage is a bit higher = yawn)

It would be far more elegant to provide new ability's to monsters, maybe increase the AI per difficulty raised and make "old league mods" appear more often as difficulty is increased.(more rogue's, boxes, shrines etc)

So a clear sense of increased difficulty and complexity is presented to the player in his progression.

However i am perfectly aware that this is my opinion on the mater and that there are players who actually would love to see all the league additions to the core game removed for example. People who simply enjoy the "plain" old game without all the fancy stuff.
(which is why i consider my altar concept a good concept, it only alters the game for people that desire it, it provides choices and doesn't enforce anything on a player)

I consider this an important factor when implementing new stuff and to me it appears GGG also knows this, most additional content is entirely optional to a player currently.

And the circle is full, creative solutions to existing problems at the time of implementation.

Expanding without being intrusive.


Peace,

-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes

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