EXP Penalty Kills the Game

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YariChinMaiNichi wrote:

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Quixote77 wrote:

Wouldn't it be boring after a while? I mean, it's cool you can get to, say, level 85 and nap the passives you need to complete your build in no time. It'd then be fun for the next level or two; but what keeps you playing that character after that? You don't really need that extra 5% health or damage node, that big juicy keystone or jewel slot three levels away, because you kill and be killed just the same. The Plateau boss fight becomes mechanically the same as the Village Ruin or Crematorium one. If your toon dies your toon dies. It's just another portal.

That's why it should be optional. It doesn't affect other players if one chooses to not be penalized one bit. Some heavy-thinkers imagine that that gives some players a competitive advantage, which is hilarious because this game is not an esport. The leagues and events, maybe you have different options for them, and hardcore obviously has an exp penalty, but standard could/should be a place for casual/semi-casual players to enjoy the experience and not feel like they just spent an hour(s), found nothing, and lost exp.

How much exp do you lose if you die in duels btw? Surely it's equal or greater than the normal exp penalty.

Well, I've nothing against making it optional but I doubt it'll be considered let alone implemented by GGG. It goes too much against the grain of their grind philosophy.

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Quixote77 wrote:

Well, I've nothing against making it optional but I doubt it'll be considered let alone implemented by GGG. It goes too much against the grain of their grind philosophy.

I hope that's not the case. In fact, I think they have made more impactful changes in the past like pst tweaks, item removals, and legacy items. But we'll see. It's an issue that I keep coming back to and posting about it because a) I love this game and it's literally the only mechanic that I think could certainly go away with little to no negative impact and b) given the competition, I think GGG should consider ways to keep players coming back (beyond added content of course).

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YariChinMaiNichi wrote:

standard could/should be a place for casual/semi-casual players to enjoy the experience and not feel like they just spent an hour(s), found nothing, and lost exp.a place for casual/semi-casual players to enjoy the experience and not feel like they just spent an hour(s), found nothing, and lost exp.

Not really. The developers have never wanted to make a game that caters to "casuals". All high-end stuff require time and effort in order to reach and leveling a character is a big part of an ARPG experience(hence it also requires considerable time and effort in its endgame stages).

Not to mention that leveling in this game is extremely easy up to around level 80-85. You are basically asking for easier leveling experience in high-level zones and that has never been a design goal of this game. Did you somehow miss that they made the game harder with the Awakening? That is the direction they would like to steer the game in, not a "casual" one.

In my experience, the XP penalty on death is a good mechanic. I simply hate loosing a lot of experience at "high" levels(my highest character is only 88), so that feeling drives me to better my build and myself as a player. Ironing out a given build's weaknesses and gameplay style provides a certain amount of enjoyment to me and I wouldn't have experienced that to the fullest without the presence of the death penalty(there would be almost no need to better myself as a player).

honestly even most of the casual players want it. People said it was too harsh, so they tried to cut it in half at one point and there was an uproar, turns out the silent majority was heavily against it even being toned down.

It doesnt effect you, give people the options... well why dont we have the option to rmt? option to run exile hud? option to cheat, option to spawn exalts whenever we want, option to completely sandbox the game? It doesnt matter right? doesnt effect you if someone else is doing it so lets have the option to do all these things?

Its not an argument that stands up, its a game with integrity, thats essentially what it boils down to and they are not going to change that because thats what most people who play poe want, a game where things matter.

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ivkoto77777 wrote:

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YariChinMaiNichi wrote:

standard could/should be a place for casual/semi-casual players to enjoy the experience and not feel like they just spent an hour(s), found nothing, and lost exp.a place for casual/semi-casual players to enjoy the experience and not feel like they just spent an hour(s), found nothing, and lost exp.

Not really. The developers have never wanted to make a game that caters to "casuals". All high-end stuff require time and effort in order to reach and leveling a character is a big part of an ARPG experience(hence it also requires considerable time and effort in its endgame stages).

Not to mention that leveling in this game is extremely easy up to around level 80-85. You are basically asking for easier leveling experience in high-level zones and that has never been a design goal of this game. Did you somehow miss that they made the game harder with the Awakening? That is the direction they would like to steer the game in, not a "casual" one.

In my experience, the XP penalty on death is a good mechanic. I simply hate loosing a lot of experience at "high" levels(my highest character is only 88), so that feeling drives me to better my build and myself as a player. Ironing out a given build's weaknesses and gameplay style provides a certain amount of enjoyment to me and I wouldn't have experienced that to the fullest without the presence of the death penalty(there would be almost no need to better myself as a player).

I find the casual disdain implied in the term "casual" to be hilarious. It's like, yea, I can't devote 30+ hours to gaming per week, sorrynotsorry.

The exp penalty only really matters at 80+ (really only 85+) and yea, a lot of players flipped their balls when they discovered all the new cheap ways they could be killed in Awakening and the devs walked it back. Not to mention new and improved lag, which makes the game often unplayable even with lockstep and playing solo.

Suppose leveling is a little easier and more people can grind up to 100 (even without deaths, still takes quite a long time), you think that would just break the game? No more than people just putting it down, I promise you.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

honestly even most of the casual players want it. People said it was too harsh, so they tried to cut it in half at one point and there was an uproar, turns out the silent majority was heavily against it even being toned down.

It doesnt effect you, give people the options... well why dont we have the option to rmt? option to run exile hud? option to cheat, option to spawn exalts whenever we want, option to completely sandbox the game? It doesnt matter right? doesnt effect you if someone else is doing it so lets have the option to do all these things?

Its not an argument that stands up, its a game with integrity, thats essentially what it boils down to and they are not going to change that because thats what most people who play poe want, a game where things matter.

Nice strawman arguments. You give players the simple ability to grind out levels as the very minimum of their time investment, it's hardly game-breaking. All that other stuff is what they call slippery slope fallacy, look it up and donate to your favorite Republican candidate.

My computer sucks and my connection is ok at best. I can't tell you how many levels I've lost to deaths. That said, would I want it removed? No. Games need risk. It's such a simple concept I can't really even imagine what you must be thinking. Especially since you haven't really presented much of an argument other than "I don't like it, personally". Ok?

Seriously, like, if dying has no penalty then what are we all doing? Running on treadmills for bigger numbers? Risk vs. reward is so fundamental to giving something lasting appeal. The fact that you keep suggesting it be optional is pretty telling, too. I'd absolutely be tempted to turn it off despite everything I've said. Penalties just can't be optional.

Now you could certainly argue that it's not the most elegant implementation of risk. That would actually be interesting too, especially if you presented some ideas. At the end of the day though, any alternative boils down to the same thing.

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YariChinMaiNichi wrote:

look it up and donate to your favorite Republican candidate.

Im from the united kingdom mate, we dont have republican candidates.

and yes, removing the need to make a good build and play it properly is game breaking.

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smithist wrote:

Games need risk. It's such a simple concept I can't really even imagine what you must be thinking.

pretty much.

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smithist wrote:

My computer sucks and my connection is ok at best. I can't tell you how many levels I've lost to deaths. That said, would I want it removed? No. Games need risk. It's such a simple concept I can't really even imagine what you must be thinking. Especially since you haven't really presented much of an argument other than "I don't like it, personally". Ok?

Seriously, like, if dying has no penalty then what are we all doing? Running on treadmills for bigger numbers? Risk vs. reward is so fundamental to giving something lasting appeal. The fact that you keep suggesting it be optional is pretty telling, too. I'd absolutely be tempted to turn it off despite everything I've said. Penalties just can't be optional.

Now you could certainly argue that it's not the most elegant implementation of risk. That would actually be interesting too, especially if you presented some ideas. At the end of the day though, any alternative boils down to the same thing.

I and others have present a number of ideas in past similar threads. As I recall, some of the ones I thought most appealing included:

1. An mf debuff after you die.
2. All exp gained in a particular area lost upon death (so if a map can only give 1% exp, you can only lose 1% exp max).
3. Dying in a map shut the maps portals down entirely or half the remaining portals.
4. Corpse-retrieval with a cool-down similar to Vorici's locked chest missions.

Yeah, it's true that I really don't like the straight exp penalty mechanic. It's particularly punishing at higher levels where there is less incentive to continue, which is problematic. It really diminishes build diversity because every player is required to go at least semi-tank if they want to keep leveling. Even then, you might get whacked every once in a while by some cheap stuff or else. For me, it really diminishes the experience and I think it's pretty reasonable to make it an option. Hardcore is an option. They made super rare stuff 4x more commonly dropped, they made higher level maps drop more, they made div cards to create more ways to get rare items. Don't tell me they aren't invested in making end game more accessible.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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YariChinMaiNichi wrote:

look it up and donate to your favorite Republican candidate.

Im from the united kingdom mate, we dont have republican candidates.

and yes, removing the need to make a good build and play it properly is game breaking.

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smithist wrote:

Games need risk. It's such a simple concept I can't really even imagine what you must be thinking.

pretty much.

You're missing out, they're a hoot.

Anyway, you're imagining things again. In no way does removing the exp penalty enable people to just cruise through the hole thing. You're not going to get by even level 75 maps with a level 100 frost nova leap slam summoner with mediocre gear. Getting to a high level doesn't guarantee anything if you have a totally crap build. It (being able to level higher) would make fringe builds barely viable and already good builds even better. Wouldn't break nothin'. Wouldn't make 95+ leveling a lick faster considering you're not dying a whole lot anyway.

Besides, they increased the super rare drops 4x, maps by who knows how much, div cards, etc. They obviously want end game to be accessible. This is an easy way to do it.

The game has risk. Every bit of currency is loaded with risk. Electing to go with a certain build is risk. Trading is risk. Chiseling a map in the hope of better drops is risk.