Caster defenses still terrible

Regarding the original post, I've played a caster in every league since anarchy/onslaught, and I would argue that casters in past leagues were not "reasonably balanced defensively" since the introduction of mom and cod. The mom/aa/eb combo was ridiculously good for the cost you had to pay for it. The investment for a caster to use this combo was like 5 skill tree points tops to get to EB, and then some mana regen on gear (and you lose the 50% stun avoidance from having ES, but how many people even know about that). Meanwhile a strength character could have stacked 15k+ armour for probably a 20-30 node investment plus high armor gear, and it might have been comparable, but it still would have only worked against physical damage. The fact that mom/aa/eb worked against literally every source of damage made it completely insane.

Even now, armour kinda sucks anyway. You have to stack a shitload and then use an iron skin granite in order to actually prevent substantial damage from large hits. And even then it will only work against physical damage. You will take full damage from elemental hits, including attacks with physical to elemental conversion. The big gain for most armour builds was the introduction of fortify, which is an insanely good buff but is probably necessary in order to make melee builds more accessible.

The "caster side of tree" defenses (ES stacking, mom) are worse against physical damage for sure, but they also work against literally every damage source in the game not named chaos damage. It would be silly for a comparable investment in caster defenses to be as good against physical damage as armour, since it prevents damage from other sources as well.

And it isn't like casters have no options. If you calc out the physical damage taken, even with this patch's armour buff a cloak of flame is about equivalent to 8k armour with only 75% fire res. This is only true for hits over 3k raw damage, but anything less than that is probably not super scary anyway, and that's also assuming the cof player has literally 0 armour. And while it's true you get no life from cof, 8k armour is a hell of a lot for one piece of gear.

The new arctic armour is also super good. For some reason you say that an "easy and obvious fix would be to make arctic armour 2.0", but also say that you won't use the current AA because the dex requirement is too high. You should grab some more dex then, because you're ignoring the fact that the current AA is substantially better than the old one against large hits which, again, are the ones most likely to kill you. It's tough to compare directly to an armour value since it gets worse exponentially, but a physical hit of 5000 damage will deal almost equivalent damage to an AA+cof character with 0 armour 75% fire res versus an armour character with 20k armour. For any thing larger than that, AA+cof is better. That's some pretty fucking heavy damage reduction, especially since you can still run actual armour, which is amplified since the hit it has to tank is reduced by 33%, and you can get +max fire res.

Not to mention that the oldest and most basic caster defense, "move the fuck out of the way", got a pretty large buff with the introduction of lockstep. ES was also buffed with its regen starting twice as fast. And you still get at least some block chance, which on average is essentially a flat damage reduction against attacks, and that's more than you can say about anyone running 2H melee or bow.

My guildmate is playing cyclone and has a shitton of armour and is running determination. He is one of the armour monstrosities you mention. When he fights a tough boss he will still bring Vaal Grace and Vaal lightning trap (for shocked ground) and an iron skin granite so that he can kill the boss safely. It's not all roses for the other sides of the tree, you still need to invest heavily in defenses if you plan on actually getting hit. This game is all about preparation. Bring vaal grace, bring vaal discipline, use them to tank tough shit. If you pop vaal grace/discipline, an iron skin granite, an elemental flask, and have aa+cof don't tell me you can't tank the majority of the more difficult enemies in the game, at least for 5-6 seconds, during which time you can probably kill whatever it is assuming your dps is decent.

So while I would agree that caster defenses are substantially worse than in previous leagues, especially when considering the damage increase on monsters, I would not say that the change is unwarranted or unfair. I would say that caster defenses are about in line with the other defenses, discounting fortify of course.

The very core design of this game is precisely to have "open" classes with no limits to what you can use... on the other hand, you guys want to close this and because you're using spells, you can't use endurance charges ? Blue skill gems only ? Weird stuff really.
Like I said, +max endurance charge is in the Templar part, which is int/str based. It's not there randomly, it's there to be accessible by int users.
To be honest, I can't really see what you wanna change in the game. You want to use MOM and EB and basically, that's it, you can't die ? Well, it's not possible anymore sorry. Game requires a bit more work now.

Besides building Armor Casters or Evasion Casters. (Which by excluding them is very elitist and you should check your privilege.) What are some of the options we have?

Sponging, which is by having a massive effective life pool... This doesn't work out, people die. People have been suggesting that you should layer your defenses, but you're complaining that it isn't thematic to casters.

So let's see what we can do to mitigate damage.

Chaos Golem, 4% reduction.
Arctic Armor, because we're most vulnerable when we're not trying not to get hit.
Curses, Whispers of Doom, Temp Chains+Enfeeble work on most mobs, except against rares that have the affix Immune to Curses.
Chill effects from Arctic Armor and Arctic Breath, slows the enemies, meaning it's easier to kite them and avoid damage.
Blind, unless you think it's not thematic to a caster.
Decoy Totems, while it's not a 100% aggro exchange, it does take the heat off of you.
Having some Armor, while you're not stacking 24000, having some armor does help mitigate.
Block, you don't need to cap block for it to help. Even the base block chance helps a lot in mitigating damage.

All of this, plus the fact we can run ES+Life Hybrid, and Mind over Matter.

If we spread out a bit, we get access to Endurance Charges from Templar, Frenzy Charges coupled with Blood Dance for Regen. We have access to some of the most effective CCs, Freeze. Molten Shell and Tempest Shield, something most people don't consider, can give effective defenses, even if it's on a CWDT.

Abyssal Cry, to further reduce movespeed and make kiting or not getting hit extremely effective.

We also have access to an INT based Physical Mitigation in Cloak of Flame.
We can also have granite flasks, unless that's not caster enough for you.
We also have Taste of Hate, unless that's not caster enough for you.

tl;dr
It's not our fault you're not exploring the other possibilities of mitigation and are just whining. You're also trying to pigeonhole casters into whatever small box your arguments crawled out of. In saying that, ES based Attack Builds are no longer melee/attack since they use "caster defenses". Ranged strength characters are no longer "ranged" since they'll probably use defenses not from the green part of the tree.

If GGG wanted us to play restricted traditional classes, they would've given us a linear shitty skilltree, but they didn't, so... *tonguepop*

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Soupology wrote:

Sponging, which is by having a massive effective life pool... This doesn't work out, people die. People have been suggesting that you should layer your defenses, but you're complaining that it isn't thematic to casters.

I don't believe I have seen a single person make the complaint that stacking defenses "isn't thematic to casters." I have specifically (and repeatedly, and very clearly) made the complaint that a strength based character stacking defenses in the strength section of the tree is fine defensively, a dex based character stacking defenses in the dex section of the tree is fine defensively, and an int based character stacking defenses in the int section of the tree is going to have terrible defenses.

And to the people who keep saying "It sounds like you guys just want <insert ridiculous thing nobody has claimed to want>," please go back and read the thread from the beginning. I have no idea where you're getting these crazy ideas. If you're looking to see what I want (in particular), it is very clearly explained in numerous posts. I want int based defenses to be in roughly the same place as strength based defenses and dex based defenses. Currently, they are vastly inferior.

"Abyssal Cry, to further reduce movespeed and make kiting or not getting hit extremely effective."

Have you actually used this? My first character in tempest league was an Arctic Breath Scion multi-curser with all the AOE and duration nodes who used both Rallying and Abyssal Cries. Abyssal Cry's AOE was incredibly small, and even with over 100% increased AOE was only useful in melee range.

In addition, it's incredibly clunky to use warcries and curses, so you're either going to use one or the other, or you're going to spend a significant amount of time kiting around simply because you're spending .6 seconds when you first see packs just using non-damaging abilities (one of which relies on running directly into melee range).

"

Soupology wrote:

We can also have granite flasks, unless that's not caster enough for you.
We also have Taste of Hate, unless that's not caster enough for you.

Why the attitude? Who in this thread has said a single thing that would give you the idea that they don't want casters using certain flasks, or that using certain flasks is problematic for casters? Do you honestly feel the need to be insulting to people you're trying to communicate with for no reason and with no purpose?

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Soupology wrote:

It's not our fault you're not exploring the other possibilities of mitigation and are just whining.

I just don't get some people. Ignoring the fact that much of what you discussed in used on my character and was explicitly mentioned in the first post of this thread, again reasoned, rational discussion is labeled "whining." You don't need to be insulting to people you disagree with. It reflects incredibly poorly on you.

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GREATER_BASH wrote:

Regarding the original post, I've played a caster in every league since anarchy/onslaught, and I would argue that casters in past leagues were not "reasonably balanced defensively" since the introduction of mom and cod. The mom/aa/eb combo was ridiculously good for the cost you had to pay for it. The investment for a caster to use this combo was like 5 skill tree points tops to get to EB, and then some mana regen on gear (and you lose the 50% stun avoidance from having ES, but how many people even know about that).

I may not have been clear enough, but my argument was never that casters had reasonable survivability for the amount of points they had to spend and the amount of gear they had to invest in. It was that the level of survivability casters had with the defenses they were using was reasonable.

Casters using EB/MOM/AA still died. They just didn't die to white Rakongos (which didn't exist then, but hopefully you see my point).

Hm. Would it be fair if caster defenses were as good as melee defenses? Would anyone still play melee then? As a melee, you have to stand in all the shit that hits you pretty hard. As a caster, you don't, you can kite. BTW, if I was running completely selffound, I would probably have problems in 74 maps as well.

Now flameblast, if I recall correctly, is a bit special because you have to stand still for a bit to cast it. Not as bad as incinerate, but going in the right direction. Maybe you have to come up with some other defensive technique on top of what you have?

74 maps are scarier than they used to be, also for melee characters.

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GREATER_BASH wrote:

The new arctic armour is also super good. For some reason you say that an "easy and obvious fix would be to make arctic armour 2.0", but also say that you won't use the current AA because the dex requirement is too high. You should grab some more dex then, because you're ignoring the fact that the current AA is substantially better than the old one against large hits which, again, are the ones most likely to kill you.

You'll notice in the very first post of this thread that my character has over 8000 effective life between Life, MOM, and ES. Big hits are not the issue. Caster defenses would be ridiculously strong if all you ever had to worry about was single large hits. We'd just go hybrid, get 10000 effective life, and laugh at everything.

It's a rakango tail shooting a dozen times for 1000 damage each hit that's the problem for the int based defenses. It's a pack of cannibals chucking molotovs for 1000 damage each hit. Kole smashes can be easily tanked. A pack of skeletons from a tempest will kill you faster than him.

To put things in perspective, a dex based character can spend five points to get slightly more (though less consistent) mitigation than MOM and simply always have it in effect from then on. A MOM character spend one point on MOM, many more points on mana nodes, and has to get mana on many pieces of gear. While the dex based character can get gear that has + % evasion, + flat evasion, + life, the int based character has to get + life, + mana, and + ES.

This means that with MOM you end up sacrificing one int based defenses to have another, and this is in addition to not being able to run auras without sacrificing your defenses, and this is also ignoring the fact that your mitigation stops working when your mana runs out. Running MOM with the new EB eliminates the aura issue, but is a pretty straightforward example of sacrificing one defense for the other, which is literally what it does.

A dex based character can stack the two dex based defenses to achieve 65-75% mitigation pretty easily without a huge investment in points. This mitigation works with flasks, is always in effect, and does not restrict you from using auras.

It is simply impossible to get remotely close to the same level of mitigation with int based defenses, regardless of point or gear investment, and that's before taking into account the many drawbacks of each int based defensive mechanic.

Again, caster defenses (which I call that because they're the traditional caster defenses and they are in the caster section of the tree) are simply terrible right now. Like I said before, ES is a terrible mechanic that was loosely held together with the now nerfed life leech. Mom requires an obscene level of sacrifice to make work, while still not always being in effect even if you get a ton of mana and leave it all unreserved.

Armour does not turn off if you take a lot of damage. Endurance Charges do not turn off if you take a lot of damage. Evasion does not turn off if you take a lot of damage. Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics do not turn off if you take a lot of damage.

Why, then, do both int based defenses turn off if you take a lot of damage? They both already provide vastly inferior damage mitigation to the options in the strength and dex sections of the tree. Why the additional drawback of only having them in effect sometimes? I've seen so many ridiculous hybrid deaths where a character had their ES down, was running away naked, and died to a stiff breeze. It's sad.

"Hey I have 9000 effective life! Awesome!" Sure, until you get hit. Then you have 4500 with no mitigation. Good luck.

Caster defenses are terrible right now. I keep saying it because it keeps being true.

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Char1983 wrote:

BTW, if I was running completely selffound, I would probably have problems in 74 maps as well.

You'll note that I specifically said that I gave up being self found this league because caster defenses were nerfed at the same time that monster damage was buffed.

The character I was referring to in the first post of this thread is IgnitiaDee. You can check her in my profile. She has 75% chaos res, overcapped elemental resists, a 50/50 Cloak of Flame, and fantastic MOM gear all around. She is not a self found character. I spent a fair bit of time browsing the shelves of Wraeclastian Wal-Mart (xyz) and bought myself some damn fine gear.

The only real limit on my gear is that many people will vendor anything they find that has a mana roll, while I'd happily throw them a few exalts for a sweet MOM helm. Even a lot of ridiculous gear I have was dirt cheap because people think they're garbage (which, given the given the current state of MOM, they kind of are). The helm and paua ring were 2 chaos each, for example. A lot of top notch MOM gear simply doesn't exist because Hargan and Zana are stockpiling it, though.

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Jennik wrote:

It's a rakango tail shooting a dozen times for 1000 damage each hit that's the problem for the int based defenses. It's a pack of cannibals chucking molotovs for 1]]

If it makes you feel better, I have died more than once to cannibals. They do deal insane amounts of damage. I have also died a lot of times to the after-death elemental explosions from the bloodline mods. They oneshot me.

Remember that, while I spent a lot of points into defenses, and also geared up towards defenses (800+ armour helmet, 500+ armour boots - you have to sacrifice other stats if you want such armour on these items and don't want to spend 5+ exalt per item), I still have only 5.6k life, and all my defenses except for arctic armour and fortify (armour, endurance charges, determination if I run it, physical reduction from tree) only reduce physical damage. Heavy elemental damage - ouch. I have less defense against that than you have. Magnus Stonethorn in a lvl 77 map? Almost insta-rips me with his flameblast. And when kiting him, no chance to get fortify running.

At the same time, I very likely have a lot less DPS than you do. And linking fortify to my attack eats a gem slot. Or I have to proc it with another skill (like leap slam).

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Char1983 wrote:

Now flameblast, if I recall correctly, is a bit special because you have to stand still for a bit to cast it. Not as bad as incinerate, but going in the right direction.

The biggest issue for and skills when it comes to defenses is damage. If you're instantly killing everything with overtuned skills like Incinerate and Poison Arrow, your defenses are less important. You simply won't get hit very often. The problem comes when people are using skills that don't give you ten times the damage for half the point investment, which would be the vast majority of skills in the game.

Incinerate is very badly balanced right now, since it gives you completely absurd levels of damage for almost no point investment. This allows people to spend all their points on defensive mechanics so that they don't die.

I think Flameblast feels like it's almost in a reasonable place right now. It requires a massive point investment to make it work due to how incredibly nerfed Elemental Proliferation was, but it still manages to kill things. The issue is that you have to spend a bunch of points picking up AOE nodes, damage nodes, and ignite nodes, only to end up with a tiny fraction of the damage an Incinerate build would have.

Skill balance is probably in a much worse place than defensive mechanic balance right now. The massive gulf between the top skills and the average skills is ridiculous. That's how the game has always been, though. I'd also love to see GGG do some work in this area.

Also, I can drop a 10 stack of Flameblast in slightly over a second. Whenever I manage to 6-link a Cloak so that I can add Faster Casting, it'll be slightly under a second. You really don't have to stand in place very long, especially since you won't always be throwing around max stack Flameblasts. To be fair, though, you do tend to throw around a hell of a lot more 10 stacks than you used to due the massive damage and AOE nerfs to Prolif. Flameblast really doesn't play like it used to.