A suggestion on how to solve endgame and mapping and make it fun and rewarding for everyone

The idea of limited portals for one and unlimited for the other would be to promote GGG's cancerous er... preferred model. ;) I doubt anyone would die an instant heart attack if both were equally as open but the point is to pander to GGG er recognise there should be something conflicting involved in which model to choose.

I have no issues with there being multiple modes of the (end)game which require some thought and decisioning. The issue with maps is that there is no decision in terms of an alternative, just a masochistic test of how far you're willing to go to get a higher level drop, based on GGG's current preset of what should be required. Which may change as the data changes... Not that they are data-driven!

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One of the issues with the map system is a character's motivation for doing them in the first place?
Loot? Bleh only in special cases can you get anything in one map you can't get another.

As it stands they are no set quests - it would be fun if EVERY MAP had GOAL/S could reward you for completing the content. Say create an achievements tab and keep track of completing the map various ways. Full clear required -> WHITE Dunes - BLUE mod 1 Dunes - GOLD mod list Dunes etc. Add some hidden treasure - some optional mini bosses - some task other than just killing monsters. The masters were an interesting addition but continue to add to it. Encourage players to fully complete every map and don't nerf players to prevent them from completing the game - add more content.

Agree.

I think a main point your missing in this is farming at top level maps. If top level maps where infinite, gear at that ilvl+ stuff that drops in that map would be the standard of the game. Groups of bots or players + cullers would flood everyone with cheap items perma running white maps.

Maps are awarding in that you could find stuff that people couldn't find running lower stuff. They changed that by making most items that where map locked (people complained it was unfair certain rare items that can only drop in maps where "RNG gated") they moved most of the items into the normal drop pool. Now all we have left is faster XP or chance at the best items in the game ilvl/roll wise.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

I think a main point your missing in this is farming at top level maps. If top level maps where infinite, gear at that ilvl+ stuff that drops in that map would be the standard of the game. Groups of bots or players + cullers would flood everyone with cheap items perma running white maps.

Maps are awarding in that you could find stuff that people couldn't find running lower stuff. They changed that by making most items that where map locked (people complained it was unfair certain rare items that can only drop in maps where "RNG gated") they moved most of the items into the normal drop pool. Now all we have left is faster XP or chance at the best items in the game ilvl/roll wise.

And yet all this great gear is available in excessive quantity to top players/streamers. There is plenty of decent to fantastic gear sitting in tabs/characters that will never be actually used by actual players because of how poor the trading system is.

Think about your own situation for a bit and remember all that unique/rares you saved because you thought they might be worth something or you might use them someday. If a weapon or piece of gear you find doesn't directly help the character (wand dropping when you use axes or daggers) you are actively playing there's a high probability it gets dropped/vendored or put in bank tab never to be used again.

Multiply that by 10000000+ realizing how a lot of players are never going to setup shops and choose to hoard everything. Secretly don't you think GGG fears how powerful players would become if they fixed the trading system and map system? I know I do.

Consider how powerful certain items such Shavs, Acuity, Mjolnir, Aegis Aurora, Voll's Devotion, mirror t1 rare items etc. Many are character defining. Some builds don't exist without these key items yet once wrapped into appropriate build they are endgame worthy.

That's THE issue in the nutshell as the game has be tuned as though a player won't have those top tier items but yet challenging enough for RNG blessed/sellers to keep playing.

There is no reason level 80+ character should be forced to run low level content in the first place unless it is intended to be that way.

It is intended to be that way, that's why gear is tied to ilvl and higher maps can drop the highest level of gear. The only way to fix this is to separate finding items and gaining XP because they are directly tied to one another. Running perma maps in it's current system sound great, until you realize that it only works because it is limited. There are too many other broken things such as bots or party + culler already destroying the game items.

It creates a win more system because people who already no-life the game/maximize it as much as possible with dedicated groups. Before they changed rarities, some of the best items in the game (lighting coil, belly of the best, ect) literally cost 1 chaos at best. Some of the best rares you'll find will be a handful of chaos at best. There has to be some limitation in place otherwise no matter how "good drops are" or how easy it is to level, it would feel utterly pointless if you can simply just buy the vast majority of your end game gear and faceroll with the currency you find just leveling to 80.

We have to make it rewarding for players to do it themselves without the choice being completely overshadowed by not doing it at all. If I can buy an whole set of "ilvl 90 gear" for relatively cheap because people stockpile decent items they find in there., why do map levels 68 to 89? I just literally skipped that level.

I wanted to say, I really like your proposal. The general idea of getting access to as high a map level as you are able to run consistently seems much better than the current system where a lot of players are stuck in a place where they only run maps that are much too easy for them because they can't get at any higher level maps in sufficient quantities.
One problem I see, that was also mentioned before, is availability of rare gear. There will be some people able to run say level 90 maps and of cours these people should have access to the top level rares that drop there. But they will get tons of such gear with infinite availability of high level maps and due to trading this will mean that even characters who can only clear say level 70 maps will get access to level 90 map gear. In theory this can happen now as well, but because high level content is so rare, high level equipment is really expensive so the chars who can only run low level maps usually can't afford it. With easy availability this would change.
I'm not sure what a good solution to this issue would be, higher level requirements would ease it only somewhat, jsut because you got your character to level 90 doesn't mean you can do level 90 maps. A system along this lines of 'you can only wear this if you killed merciless malachai' would also be very awkward and a big change from the current system, not in a good direction from my point of view.

For this to work, you would need to tie gear much more strongly to char level and make char progression based much more on the level of content you do. So you would need to be level 95 to use the stuff from level 95 maps and you could, in practice, only level to 95 by doing content that is at least level 90 or something.

There would be more high-end items, but they would not be the norm, because you could not use them unless you could basically run that content yourself. There would not be such a sharp distinction between end-game gear and levelling gear, since only a handful of players and builds could reach the "end" of gear.

You would get almost no exp from running easy content, but would that be so bad?

As a side note: there should be some randomisation of the tilesets. Running the same few maps over and over again is not really ideal.

But it might just be simpler to allow difficulty to be rolled for free via the map device or something.

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One of the issues with the map system is what would be character's motivation for doing them in the first place?
Loot? Bleh only in special cases can you get anything in one map you can't get another.

Because it is a challenge and fun? The drops in this game don't get me excited anyways, and the best item so far I have found in a level 70 or so map (Shavs).

Also, if you decrease the character levels where you get full XP, you would need to run the 80+ maps if you want to level beyond 90.

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As it stands there are no set quests - it would be fun if EVERY MAP had GOAL/S could reward you for completing the content. Say create an achievements tab and keep track of completing the map various ways. Full clear required -> WHITE Dunes - BLUE mod 1 Dunes - GOLD mod list Dunes etc. Add some hidden treasure - some optional mini bosses - some task other than just killing monsters. The masters were an interesting addition but continue to add to it. Encourage players to fully complete every map and don't nerf players to prevent them from completing the game - add more content.

True, but a separate issue. Also, related to that (see also next post), it is not that helpful if the highest-level maps drop ever and ever better items. Because that would just make those who are able to run those maps even richer. In my view, it should be a challenge, and if you supply players with ever and ever better items, that takes away some of the challenge.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

I think a main point your missing in this is farming at top level maps. If top level maps where infinite, gear at that ilvl+ stuff that drops in that map would be the standard of the game. Groups of bots or players + cullers would flood everyone with cheap items perma running white maps.

Good-rolled rare items are just... very rare. Because a rare is just very unlikely to roll 4+ T1 mods. That is not going to change. White items are available already, for not that expensive. And then again, would it be bad if everyone had a bit more access to good gear? For the top players it would be bad, because it would reduce their wealth relative to others, but for the average Joe and the 90%+ of the player base that are not no-lifers it would be positive. Or am I missing something?

Also, you could just make top-tier maps hard enough such that 80%+ of the players cannot run 82+ maps anyways. If that is your goal. Of course, the idea would need some more thought and some more balancing, and some intensive study of what impacts that would have. I am open to other ideas to make endgame a lot of fun for everyone.


EDIT: Also, there are reasons why you would want to do ilvl 68-89 maps:

a) Starting from lvl 79, chests in maps can drop all items in the game with all modifiers (+5 chest level gives ilvl 84 items, and there are no mods requiring higher than ilvl 84)
b) Starting from lvl 82, maps drop everything from rares
c) Starting from lvl 84, maps would drop everything even from white mobs
d) Very simply, most characters / builds would not be able to do level 90 maps cause they would, if the proposal was implemented as suggested, likely be as hard as uber Atziri or harder. My own build would just get stuck somewhere in the early 80s I guess. Which is fine, I would have my challenge.
e) You would have to get your hands on the level 90 maps first.

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quarague wrote:

One problem I see, that was also mentioned before, is availability of rare gear. There will be some people able to run say level 90 maps and of cours these people should have access to the top level rares that drop there. But they will get tons of such gear with infinite availability of high level maps and due to trading this will mean that even characters who can only clear say level 70 maps will get access to level 90 map gear. In theory this can happen now as well, but because high level content is so rare, high level equipment is really expensive so the chars who can only run low level maps usually can't afford it. With easy availability this would change.

Another iteration on the gear ;). OK, well...

Level 90 maps would not drop any better loot than level 84 maps. They probably would not even drop more loot, they would just give more XP, be more challenging and maybe more fun. I draw my fun out of challenge. Not sure about everyone else of course.

Also, even now the same thing happens: Atziri's Acuities are, for example, available to everyone. In theory. In practice, they are too expensive. It will not start raining Shavs and Mjolners in lvl 90 maps, why would it? It will also not start raining uber-extreme rare items. The best rares are very rare, and I have yet to see a rare item that is better than a rare item that could drop in a lvl 75 map (and is not crafted).

The way the system is set up is that 98% of the rare loot is crap. One might think about changing that, but that is another topic. Also, in 1.3 pretty much everyone was running maps that were capable of dropping the highest-level rare items. Was the result so bad?

As for trading, also another thing, but I personally think there should not be an auction house because that would make good items a lot easier to get, up to the point where its almost trivialised.

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Char1983 wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

I think a main point your missing in this is farming at top level maps. If top level maps where infinite, gear at that ilvl+ stuff that drops in that map would be the standard of the game. Groups of bots or players + cullers would flood everyone with cheap items perma running white maps.

Good-rolled rare items are just... very rare. Because a rare is just very unlikely to roll 4+ T1 mods. That is not going to change. White items are available already, for not that expensive. And then again, would it be bad if everyone had a bit more access to good gear? For the top players it would be bad, because it would reduce their wealth relative to others, but for the average Joe and the 90%+ of the player base that are not no-lifers it would be positive. Or am I missing something?

To elaborate on this more, people have weird thinking about this.

The average joe or "90% of the pop" it isn't "positive", because they wouldn't farm to achieve the highest tier maps fast enough or farm it enough to have a better output they have before. What they did get before is devalued even further.

Infinite high tier maps isn't going to make the average joe farm that map 100 times in a single day with a giant group + culler to get 1000% times the loot, he'll farm that map 10 times at 0% mf and then log out for the night. Assuming if average joe even gets to that level of maps (let's assume map level 90 is the bare min standard now).

So you have the vast majority of average joes hardly farming that level of content, and anyone farming below this stuff is 100% completely worthless outside of a extremely lucky drop. We aren't talking about 4+ t1 drops, you don't need that for "progression". Average joe wants smooth progression.

You know what is the best case scenario then if the 20+ hours of farming to get to map level 90 is a waste? Just buy the map level 90+ from one of the no-lifers who has it filled in their stash willing to sell it to you for a cheap price. Thus we run into the same problem, there's no point in the map system if you can just buy your way up. It'll be exactly the same as gear, why slowly progress through "worthless gear" when you can just buy average gear easily found at map level 90+.

Buying level 68 map gear that people have a shit ton of for less then 1 chaos apiece already lets you pubstomp merc.

You also have some misconceptions about the drop system, at 85+ all items would always be that their top tier base and they'll always have the highest chance of rolling the highest affixes. People do not infinite chain together the highest tier maps as of current (nor did they do it in 1.3), now it would be completely mandatory and the norm.