Do you guys think Infernal Blow needs its damage to be nerfed by 150%? GGG does.

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Rusery wrote:

This nerf was a balance call for the skill. People could one-shot strongboxes back when they were clustered and can destroy full screens of mobs provided they set up for 60% aoe + melee splash AOE 20%. Now, you can use it vs reflect mobs which warranted a complete nurf of the explosion damage.

It is no longer the main source of damage for the skill and placed properly as support damage. However, higher HP values = more raw damage = more damage augmented by passives (%fire, ele + w/e else effects the explosion damage).

EDIT() On another similar note: I found with zombies/skeles HP increased in the beta that 33% life explosion is now pretty OP given the amount of passives you can allocate to beef it up.

Highlighted the most important part of what you said, again people are only viewing the % directly and completely neglecting the fact that the secondary part of the skill is not the complete skill, the fact it was being used as such doesn't mean that was intended or desired from the devs.

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goetzjam wrote:

You assume they just doubled the life of monsters when they adjusted the value lower. Also didn't they make the explosion non-reflectable at the same time?

I love it when people just pull things out of context to complain and twist it, if OP is in closed beta this feedback belongs there, if not hes just speculating and that feedback is completely pointless IMO.

I assume nothing. [Removed by Support]

So how about you don't assume that I'm assuming? It's called an example.

[Removed by Support]

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Natharias wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

You assume they just doubled the life of monsters when they adjusted the value lower. Also didn't they make the explosion non-reflectable at the same time?

I love it when people just pull things out of context to complain and twist it, if OP is in closed beta this feedback belongs there, if not hes just speculating and that feedback is completely pointless IMO.

I assume nothing.
So how about you don't assume that I'm assuming? It's called an example.

I didn't catch what was removed by support so I am sure some context is missing.

But this is the "example" you used:

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If monsters had 500 life when it did 25%, the damage was 125.

If the change was to 1,000 life and 10%, the damage is now 100.

So what if I used your same example and just changed the life to something else.

If monsters had 500 life when it did 25%, the damage was 125.

If the change was to 2,000 life and 10%, the damage is now 200.

You see how it isn't just % that matter its the actual implementation that does?

[Removed by Support]

IB change (25->10%) is a DIRECT nerf, no mattter how does the mobs health change BECAUSE - and this is the part that you do not understand - if mob's health grows, so does the damage required to kill it. so it can be removed from the equation.

whats more - if the mobs health grows it means the 'basic' portion of the attack is LESS important as it is a flat value compared to %-based explosion.

so you are wrong in both cases. i'll leave to you creating an equation that describes the skill (a hint: hit damage, mobs health, %explosion + for the advanced group: all %inc/%more modifiers). you can use an online chart software to plot the curve for yourself and see.

[Removed by Support]

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sidtherat wrote:

IB change (25->10%) is a DIRECT nerf, no mattter how does the mobs health change BECAUSE - and this is the part that you do not understand - if mob's health grows, so does the damage required to kill it. so it can be removed from the equation.

whats more - if the mobs health grows it means the 'basic' portion of the attack is LESS important as it is a flat value compared to %-based explosion.

So now you have to invest into the actual "basic" part of the skill now and not rely 100% on the explosion part, its called rebalancing for a reason, if you are using a skill purely for the secondary effect of it, then you are using it in an unintended way.

Reflect is no longer an issue for the secondary effect, lets completely ignore this the whole time while making your points.

It is no longer the main source of damage for the skill and placed properly as support damage. However, higher HP values = more raw damage = more damage augmented by passives (%fire, ele + w/e else effects the explosion damage).


^ That pretty much sums up the change in a nutshell, want to debate that part?

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goetzjam wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

IB change (25->10%) is a DIRECT nerf, no mattter how does the mobs health change BECAUSE - and this is the part that you do not understand - if mob's health grows, so does the damage required to kill it. so it can be removed from the equation.

whats more - if the mobs health grows it means the 'basic' portion of the attack is LESS important as it is a flat value compared to %-based explosion.

So now you have to invest into the actual "basic" part of the skill now and not rely 100% on the explosion part, its called rebalancing for a reason, if you are using a skill purely for the secondary effect of it, then you are using it in an unintended way.

Reflect is no longer an issue for the secondary effect, lets completely ignore this the whole time while making your points.

It is no longer the main source of damage for the skill and placed properly as support damage. However, higher HP values = more raw damage = more damage augmented by passives (%fire, ele + w/e else effects the explosion damage).


^ That pretty much sums up the change in a nutshell, want to debate that part?

no, you are twisting the words to escape the inescapeable - [Removed by Support] you are still while quoting some other guy. as 'more HP' means NOTHING as the % damage is used against mobs with 'MORE HP'. [Removed by Support]

it does not matter how much health mobs have when considering %based damage - and all passives, %inc, %more etc stuff. as the damage is dealt to mob with health the % damage is based on. i thought it is simple. the only stuff that will go up with mobs health is leech values from fire damage as these are done FROM raw damage (that surely will go up) and applied to players health.

Detonate Dead in 1.3 and 2.0 is just as effective - regardles of mobs health changes. and same goes for IB. except it now a lot harder to do a chain-explosion

BTW - leave to devs the explaining of 'what skill is supposed to do and how it is supposed to be used'. they know that. not you. nor me.


what you do now is just pretending you've never said this:

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goetzjam wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Sixty percent.

Six zero.

Facepalm. (edit: except TBC)

Of course OP leaves out the fact that monsters have more life so the explosion actually will do more damage then live.

Howso I said the explosion will actually do more damage then live. I did basic math to prove it.

If monsters had 500 life when it did 25%, the damage was 125.

If the change was to 2,000 life and 10%, the damage is now 200.

200>125, so the raw damage is technically more, therefore my statement still is correct and the basic math actually checks out.

Spend less time focusing on the worst context you can pull from words and more on focusing on the issue which is:

GGG is changing the skill so you have to scale the physical damage portion of it as well as the explosion, but by doing such they have made melee damage support gems and levels much more meaningful so the whole idea of 25%>10% is taken of of context, like you and OP want it to be taken out of instead of the actual end result:

Since you still don't seem to get it:

It is no longer the main source of damage for the skill and placed properly as support damage. However, higher HP values = more raw damage = more damage augmented by passives (%fire, ele + w/e else effects the explosion damage).


See your edit now:

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BTW - leave to devs the explaining of 'what skill is supposed to do and how it is supposed to be used'. they know that. not you. nor me.

I'll gladly allow them to post correcting me or you, but its quite clear based off the change they made to it that they don't want the secondary part of the skill to be the complete skill, if they did they could have reworked it in a way for it to be that or left the % higher, instead they want you to scale it different, which is obvious by the change. Feel free to come up with a build in beta and prove me otherwise, but I believe this skill will still be strong and its "nerf" is an adjustment, if properly supported by gear will still be as strong if not stronger then on live.

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sidtherat wrote:

IB change (25->10%) is a DIRECT nerf, no mattter how does the mobs health change BECAUSE - and this is the part that you do not understand - if mob's health grows, so does the damage required to kill it. so it can be removed from the equation.

Mostly this. If you double the health of enemies, and you only use Infernal Blow, there are half as many explosions per unit time (not damage per explosion, I mean quantity of explosions), because it takes twice the damage to generate a kill.

HOWEVER
that "if you only use Infernal Blow" phrase is important. If you mainly use another skill and save IB for finishing blows, it is possible all of your IB hits could be strictly buffed in terms of DPS. Note, however, that if explosion damage is mediocre, players won't go through the trouble.

Thus the change of massively boosting monster life, in and of itself, has the effect of nerfing nonlethal IB hits, while buffing lethal IB hits, in such a way that pure IB spam is neither buffed or nerfed overall.

Here's what I would change for the skill if I was GGG:
Fire, Attack, AoE, Melee, Duration
Base duration is 1 second
Explosion deals base Fire Damage equal to x% of the corpse's maximum Life
...where x is roughly sqrt(625/k), and k is the approximate enemy life mmultiplier. This formula is based on geometric mean. For example, if enemy life was doubled, 18% would be about right (20% might be okay); if enemy life is tripled, 15% would be good. 12.5% for quadrupled.

This would hopefully prevent IB from being OP as a finishing move, but hopefully not to such an extent it discourages its use in combos, and the increased duration and Duration tag would help it play well with other skills.

Unless GGG plans on buffing monster life to over six times current values, I feel 10% explosions represent an overnerf (as usual).

@Goetz: You have to let it go, man. You are just straight up wrong on its "effective," or "relative," strength.

25%->10% is a reduction of 60% less.

For beta/2.0's 10% to be stronger than 1.3's 25%, beta/2.0 has to supply 150% more damage, somehow.

I strongly doubt 2.0 is going to supply remotely close to 150% more damage (because IB does not exist in a vacuum), so for now this does really seem quite heavy handed.

I'll grant you, yes, time will tell. IB could still be a viable skill in 2.0, but it will be nerfed no matter what. There is no way to spin a buff out of this change.

In re: reflect: This is the only place in the discussion where mob HP is relevant for comparisons.

Edit: @Scrotie: Yes, DPS from explosions is (or can be) increased; however, as monster EHP increased, so too does the efficacy of DPS decrease.

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CanHasPants wrote:

Edit: @Scrotie: Yes, DPS from explosions is (or can be) increased; however, as monster EHP increased, so too does the efficacy of DPS decrease.

Umm assuming that if GGG is, say, tripling enemy life, they intend everyone to take three times as long killing enemies. Why would IB get off the hook?