jewels discussion: bringing RNG and Economy to the Passive Tree

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Chundadragon wrote:

I guess you're right John but any of us who've played at least a few ARPGs in our time knew this was coming from about 1000 miles away.

I don't think there is a way to implement this in PoE without RNG, even if it wasn't socketed into the passive tree it would still be RNG (extra gear slots maybe)

Gotta suck it up and hope it ain't too bad.

if you are talking about something like Relics in Titan Quest - I'd really like to see that.
not only will it preserve the player's full control over his/her skill tree, it will also give SF players something to grind for, while trading players can still get significant "Relics" or "Relic Ingredients" for Orbs.

Well yah TQ Relics or D2 Gems but then...

Those kinda things were fixed and only fixed thing in PoE are uniques and we all know about their RNG :~>

I guess it's too late to go for fixed quest jewel rewards (only implementation I can think of w/o RNG) since they already have a system imbedded within PoE's perfect currency system :D

It's probably put down to the complexity of the game :D

sorry, I meant Artifacts, not Relics.
looks like I really should play TQ again to remember how it works :)

an Artifact is a craftable item placed in an extra inventory slot, needs a ton of grinding for both ingredients and formulas, and can make your character insanely powerful.

So what's the difference between farming for that and farming for alts/chaos?

As far as I can tell there are different jewel base types tuned for different rolls and if there is little variance within them, the variance can be likened to the variance in the time for the grind to your formulas/ingredients.

I feel like the OP is inlating this whole "issue" to the point of insanity. I can see some of his points but in general they are pretty far fetched.


Look at his:

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johnKeys wrote:

and while I hardly give a damn about the "competitive" aspect of the game, some people do. for those people, using (and trading for) Jewels will mean advantage over those who don't.

This is such a ridiculous statement. This is like saying: People who use game feature X will have an advantage over those who don't. Wel... obviously.

"Path Of Exile's horrible, all-powerful, seemingly-unbiased implementation of an RNG sets"
more of blowing everything out of proportions

I think you're creating some sort of horrible alternate reality where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, where most people cannot afford anything at all and only the big-fish-1000exalteds players are able to do anything.

This is so not the case. BTW, was that part in spoiler a joke? "The rich" next to "can afford full respec" I hope so.

Worst case scenario: You need a rare jewel with good stats or a unique jewel for your build and you don't have one. How long do you think it would take you to acquire this jewel?

This is the same case with needing a rare helmet with life and 25% cold and 17% fire res to cap out on all resistances. Not really hard feat to achieve, isn't it?

"it's a whole new level of RNG dominance, really."


Just farm some currency and buy one. If you want to gimp yourself with not trading, go ahead. I don't really think that RNG dominates everyhing in the game to the extend you're imagining.

Most semi-decent players can acquire items and currency and get their builds working CONSISTANTLY. You make it sound like RNG totaly dominates everything but it doesn't.

And about that wallstreet part. EKHM....

If you want to gimp yourself and not trade for items go ahead. But you can't expect GGG to cater to people like you. Trading is a game's feature. You artificialy decide to make your own rule about not trading and then complain how new patch is going to harm you. What do you expect? GGG saying, sorry boyz, the jewels idea will be withdrawn because selffounders can't get access to the jewels needed?

Act4 is not even out yet. Give it some time.

BTW, this part is just pure gold

" Let me start by saying, I like the concept of items which enable you to dynamically change your build. it sounds extremely fun and augments what already is my favorite part about Path Of Exile "

+

" can one still build a static tree, after Jewels are introduced? sure. but besides the obvious need to do so, while limiting yourself to paths which contain no jewel slots - that also means I won't be able to use a concept I'm very excited to see in the game (see beginning of post). "

You like the concept of items that would let you dynamicaly change your build.

GGG introduces jewels, items that let you dynamicaly change your build.

It's bad.

WHAT? (I may have misunderstood you on this one. If by "a concept I'm very excited to see in the game" you mean "static" skill tree, then OK, nevermind.

I see that later you have mentioned something like titan quest's relic system. OK. But I still think you are emphasising trading players vs self founders too much. Trading is a thing and it's not going away. You have to deal with it.

Somehow you already know that ONLY lucky or rich people will be able to get the jewels they need. You already know it will suck for you.

After 8 weeks of closed beta GGG will gather and summarise feedback. I can't possible imagine people complaining about jewel system the way you do it. You never know, maybe the large percentage of beta testers will share your stance on this but I honestly doubt it.

@Elemental, I read your entire post. some points I think I should clarify:

1) from a competitive aspect - i.e comparing two competitive players who play roughly the same (insane) amount of time, and take on the same (super-end-game) content - I believe the player who spends a greater percentage of his time trading compared to the other, will now have advantage in the Skill Tree as well.
I don't think it's too "far fetched" to claim this.
this change encourages trade vs. playing the actual game, more than any previous one.
btw, full respec was a Spoiler comment which meant "the rich" can already full-respec all of their chars pretty much at will, multiple times over. which is true.

2) "Just farm some currency and buy one" means you just didn't get the point of the entire thread. at all. despite bothering to write an elaborate and lengthy reply.

3) I do "gimp myself" by not trading, or rather not trading as much as the game expects me to - but now this "gimping myself" will apply to my most basic ability to construct a path of complete choice through the passive tree, for my character.
currently, I have no such problem, despite "gimping myself".
that's pretty much THE point of the thread.

4) still too early to see? perhaps. but GGG have one way to implement new features: the Trade&RNG way. that's a known fact supported by a large enough sample of changes made. changes I've seen happen from 1 day after the end of the previous Closed Beta. in January 2013.
what makes you think they'll go for something different, or that data from the Beta would make them consider an not-Trade&RNG way?

5) finally, the part you highlighted as "contradicting" just proves you read wrong.
I'd love the concept of Dynamic Builds. I'd hate the way GGG would likely implement this concept, and want them to reconsider the implementation. the sooner the better.

@Chunda, the difference between farming ingredients for an Artifact in TQ, and farming Alterations/Chaos/whatnot in PoE, is relics/charms in TQ could by themselves be used to grant deterministic bonuses to equipment. or you could save them up for an even stronger version. or the strongest one being an Artifact.

it was Crafting in it's purest form: targeted farming that made you feel like you've accomplished something + player choice of what to do with what you have accomplished.
all achieved by playing the game.

one of the key reasons why Titan Quest is - in my opinion - one of the best. damn. games in the ARPG genre to date.

PoE's Orbs? crafting in name alone. in reality, excessive RNG makes them nothing but Dollars for an Economy that's apparently more important than everything else.

After having crafted for a long time, basically there is no RNG in it all if you do it enough. (Do it before the numbers statistically balance out though and you either get fucked completely or luck out completely)

Use 10,000 fuse and you will get 10 6Ls. They might appear at 8000, 8100, 8200... but you are guaranteed them. (Stats at it's best) You just need to run it long enough to balance the RNG out.

The problem with PoE crafting is it's all or nothing approach (as opposed to Titan Quest I guess which allows you to "save up" the chance for rolls) and huge variance - see shavs drops never, once or 4 times for the same person, if the 6Ls appear at 8000+ then the previous 7000 fuses are all for nothing up to that point and if you only have 7000, tough luck. Unique drops are the same, play 5000 hours and you are guaranteed them but you might get them at 1 hour (LOLL NICE I GOT SHAVS IN DOCKS) or 5000 hours in which case you are so done with the game it doesn't matter.

In my opinion, if we can have a system of crafting that guarantees the rolls on average within 150-200 alts then if you craft 10 of them, the RNG will balance out at 2000 for all of them.

That's as close to deterministic as we get in this game.

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johnKeys wrote:

@Chunda, the difference between farming ingredients for an Artifact in TQ, and farming Alterations/Chaos/whatnot in PoE, is relics/charms in TQ could by themselves be used to grant deterministic bonuses to equipment. or you could save them up for an even stronger version. or the strongest one being an Artifact.

it was Crafting in it's purest form: targeted farming that made you feel like you've accomplished something + player choice of what to do with what you have accomplished.
all achieved by playing the game.

one of the key reasons why Titan Quest is - in my opinion - one of the best. damn. games in the ARPG genre to date.

PoE's Orbs? crafting in name alone. in reality, excessive RNG makes them nothing but Dollars for an Economy that's apparently more important than everything else.

The bolded.

That's not to say you couldn't roll an absolute fail sauce bonus on your artfifact and have to start again though John.

I bought TQ:IT on steam to relive it somewhat.Took just over 60 hours (with much afk) to gear a very specific build I enjoy and rolling the bonus stat on the artifact was the most painfull part of the game.The Book of Dreams is one of the most eye rolling artifacts to make since it requires the level one scroll (oneros) which can't be purchased at vendors and needs to be target farmed in normal difficulty,which makes failing the desired bonus mod a real pain.

Secondry/bonus mods on charms could suffer the same kind of misery but to a much lesser extent,as the ingredients to make them was by far easier to obtain.

=)

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Temper wrote:

Your statement is based on a false premise itself,because the only games you have to back up your claim do in fact use trade reliant systems but you ignore the slew ARPGs that released and ran for years without this reliance.The number of western ARPGs you have for reference totals around two (D3 vanilla and POE) and the opposing argument a whole slew of titles that date back to the D1 era.

why cant people admit PoE is not a single-player ARPG ?

you cant balance a 'competitive' MMARPG that is PoE not around trading. the only alternative is bound on account items.

you have to completely separate online-only ARPGs and single player variants that have optional multiplayer like diablo 1, titan quest or torchlight. these games arent really the same genre.

diablo 3, marvel heroes are online-only, they arent too 'competitive', but they have lots of BoA items in order to not balance around trade.

it's 2015, nowadays people stream in HD quality, its easier than ever get a walkthough video on youtube, have all your friends see you taking a crap on facebook, and people can organize ddos you with enough kiddie scripts and zombies

its not 1996 or even 2000, when internet was still a novelty even in america, let alone other countries. trading is so trivial it's not even funny. organized trading is easier than ever. just like you can trade stocks left and right reliably on internet, you can trade virtual items fast and easy today. it's just a fact.

GGG was faced with two ways- make items BoA and not balance around trade, or let all items be tradeable and balance around trade. they chose the latter.

third option many hamper on- no BoA items and competitive online-only ARPG with a semblance of economy, simply does not exist. you can have that option in games like grim dawn, which is single player non-comeptitive ARPG. people trade save games with thousand of items in their stash.

but PoE is not GD. its design is completely different. just because it has *parts* of classic ARPG doesnt mean its your parents' ARPG. no, its MMARPG, designed around partying and trading, with its chief playerbase being hardcore players who play 8+ hours a day