Remove xp penalty's from death

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NeverPlaysRarelyPosts wrote:

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mazul wrote:

When you get to the point where the xp penalty actually matters, you are already punished for dying: you lose a valuable portal.

Removing the xp penalty in Standard league, would make Standard league more popular for casual players. It would be a change with no negative downsides.

The fallacy here is "because players cannot die 6 times and continue a map, dying in maps is discouraged." In fact, such a system provides nearly zero reason to avoid dying once per map. Or twice. Or even five times. Then all of a sudden, on the sixth death, a penalty finally kicks in.

So this is how you would build a character under such a system: if you're not dying at least once per map, you have invested too much in defense. You tune upwards, getting more and more glass cannon, until you're dying 2-4 times per map on average. If you're dying more than that, then you might want to make some trivial investment in defense.

I consider even 1 death per map on average to be zergy. 2-4 would be triple zergy. What you are suggesting is absurd.

Well the point of playing a map is to do it without dying... Obviously. And this can bring up a whole other conversation with 6 Man Map Rotations. You Only Get 1 Life. And If You Die, You Have To Sit Out For 10 Minutes.

And getting to level 100 is a goal set by GGG. Grinding gear games put a Cap on the levels because they wanted level 100 to be the highest level you can get. They also made the xp punishment affect everyone level 1-99. So um, I think they want you to get to level 100 so you don't have to worry about stupid deaths anymore.

The problem with doing hard maps at level 94-99 is that even if you only have 8% xp, thats about 12 level 78 maps. So really, every 1% you get should be cherished and can't be blown away on a death. Even my one friend, who said he is stopping at 99, even when I map with him, I still feel terrible and blame myself if he dies. Even though he "doesn't care", I know he cares.

Let the players choose weather to have "Xp Turned OfF" for the map, so they can take it easy, hang out with friends, BS on teamspeak, and not have to be anal every second they're online.

I think people would like to try out hard maps, uber atziri, the atziri trio in Vaal Temple, but they NEVER get a chance. Not because its too hard, but because EVERYONE ELSE SAYS ITS TOO HARD. Let people try for themself. Why would they want to risk they're xp if everyone says its suicide. But the player should be able to make his own opinion.

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grepman wrote:

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gilrad wrote:

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grepman wrote:

if you can get a 50% of maps drop in boss, why bother do the majority of the map ? itd be MUCH faster and efficient to do boss runs. GGG has stated it wanted to make map bosses hard because they were to be optional. your proposal completely invalidates that concept.

Oh I see, you just didn't understand my suggestion (I did kind of simplify it since the last time I suggested it).

As you play the map, 50% of your drops are hidden and placed in the boss buffer. Rush to the boss, you don't get 50% of the map's total drops, you only get the other 50% of your drops that you had up until that point (which wouldn't be much if you skipped most of the map content). And let's just say other maps only drop from the boss as well, just for good measure.

ok, it makes more sense I guess, but still kinda weird mechanic to me. but fair enough.

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Anyway, those who keep saying "the XP penalty is fine, if you remove it people are just going to zergrush content" keep conveniently avoiding the fact that under the current system, once you can accept that you will no longer receive any more passive points, that's exactly what people do! Under the oh-so strict requirements a proper death penalty needs, I'd say the current system is a pretty bad death deterrent for those who don't care to level to 100. Much worse at encouraging players to avoid death than some of the other suggestions listed here.

who exactly is avoiding that fact ?

it IS the tradeoff, as evidenced by the level 100 guy. he concedes he lost fun by trading it for whatever satisfaction level 100 got him.

if it was up to me, Id delevel characters too, which would easily solve the problem as you state it, but that is an extremely unpopular opinion... so I wont expand on it.

Um leave me out of your argument. I didn't say I lost fun by trading it for level 100. I said I started to have so much fun at level 100 that I wish every hard-core end-gamer who either "Doesn't have the time" or "Doesn't Have 10 Friends leveling at the same time to always get a 78 Rot" can have a chance to experience.

By hitting level 100, I don't have to worry about being anal opening boxes. I giggle if I stood too long in Creamatorium Boss Rain of Fire. My heart gets racing when I use Vaal Cyclone and spawn Insane amounts of beyond mobs. I wish people can get the same mapping freedom as a level 100, without having to put the time to getting 100. Which is perfectly fine with me, as long as the path to level 100 doesn't change.

By putting the xp penalty, and a max level cap, GGG created the goal to Hit Level 100 so you don't have to worry about dying and the XP.

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The_Great_Alex wrote:

Well, do you know any online game that people complaing about desync for years? Why did it started at the first place? Why people complaing about desync exactly on poe forums?

And you know people are not dumb, if they had been playing very well in other online games and after starting to play here they started to see some wierd shit that they have never seen before, they wont start to think : "Oh crap, eveery time I log into poe my internet becomes so unstable, but when I exit poe and play other games its back up again, yeah my internet connection sucks yeah".

So you are saying if I switch my optical fibre to LTE desync will go?

No, people don't complain about desync in other games for years because they trust the client for more actions, something GGG won't do. Your whole comments here really have nothing to do with the core reason this topic was created your just chastising another player.

Probably won't go away, but I bet you desync will change if you change ISPs, whether or not that is a positive change who knows.

@levy42088

Getting to level 100 isn't a goal set by GGG, you don't get anything special or fancy by getting it. GGG put a cap on it for balance reasons. Also no penalty in deing in normal difficulty, don't even think it counts against your /deaths.

If your friend is level 99 its almost the same just to chain the highest low level linear map he can do, just throw it in white as the XP penality limits you to 2% of the monsters XP at that level you can level at pretty much the same speed doing 70 undergrounds as you can chaining 78's, thats not even including rolling the 78s because I've yet to see someone sustain higher level maps from white maps only. Havoc discusses doing 66 maps at level 99 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1yUzXoPvdE

I can understand wanting just to play around and not risk the XP loss about worrying on certain mobs, but I think players would actually get sick of not getting xp, especially in standard where the drops overall mean less income. If you want a take it easy map don't roll hard mods or do lower level maps.

Players that don't do uber atziri or hard maps don't want to lose anything, if it was purely because of XP, then why wouldn't they try it when they leveled up and had no XP to lose? People don't do uber atziri because shes difficult and gated behind RNG and if you don't get lucky on drops you lose a LOT of investment, something poor players don't want to do. Difficult maps typically aren't rewarding enough to merit doing it, hell every map rotation i've ever been in skips palace dominus. Doesn't matter what mods are on the map.

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goetzjam wrote:

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There is no simple removal of desync from this discussion, because it is about suffering a death penalty when you have no choice in the matter. I know you claim to not have desync, so you probably don't know what it's like, but when you're running through clearing mobs, then something dangerous happens and you try to run away, but the game teleports you back into them (due to resyncing while you thought you got away) and you die--that's not your fault. You were doing everything you could to escape the danger.

Making this game casual friendly isn't good for this game either, will it result in more players, yes, but that isn't the direction GGG sold us (well technically its f2p) or told us it was going.

EDIT: Adding reply here for the @100 journey. I understand it took you time, patience and planning to get to 100, you want to see that reduced so that others have AN easier time getting to it? Don't you feel that is kind of counter intuitive to the whole working to progress your character?

I would still know that I hit level 100 pre nerf. And its not that I want everyone to hit 100, its that the Fun while mapping shouldn't ONLY happen once you hit 100. If everyone got to experience mapping the way I do at level 100, the player base would easily double.

And if your so in love with the xp penalty, and saying you don't want this game to appeal to a larger crowd, then go play hardcore. Then you can spend hours and hours on a character, watch it die, then go and slit your wrists.

This is a video game. yes, you should never be happy to die, but no it should not be the end of the world if you do. Let the people choose between doing a hard map with NO XP GAIN / NO XP LOSS or doing super easy Pack size maps with a 78 Rot.

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I would still know that I hit level 100 pre nerf. And its not that I want everyone to hit 100, its that the Fun while mapping shouldn't ONLY happen once you hit 100. If everyone got to experience mapping the way I do at level 100, the player base would easily double.

That is the scenario that you established that mapping can only be fun at level 100. Many people stop a character at 90 or 95 or 98 or whatever amount they feel the character is finished at or has gotten all the points they need and don't care if they die or not anymore.

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And if your so in love with the xp penalty, and saying you don't want this game to appeal to a larger crowd, then go play hardcore. Then you can spend hours and hours on a character, watch it die, then go and slit your wrists.

I do fully plan on play HC the next set of leagues, bloodlines is honestly pretty terrible and I wasn't around at the start of the league in order to push through to maps quickly enough for me to be happy. I also don't plan to slit my wrists either, although some people might find offense to that phrase.

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This is a video game. yes, you should never be happy to die, but no it should not be the end of the world if you do. Let the people choose between doing a hard map with NO XP GAIN / NO XP LOSS or doing super easy Pack size maps with a 78 Rot.

It isn't the end of the world if you die, you lose 10% XP. Picking and choosing removes the risk and reward aspect of it, if I could do -max maps and turn off XP gain i'd do it all the time, who cares if I die I had higher quantity so better chances at map drops. Your not seeing the failed logic in what you are suggesting and how its a BAD thing to give players the option to not take XP on a map by map basis. Players can already choose to do this by running difficult maps RIGHT after they level.

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goetzjam wrote:

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I would still know that I hit level 100 pre nerf. And its not that I want everyone to hit 100, its that the Fun while mapping shouldn't ONLY happen once you hit 100. If everyone got to experience mapping the way I do at level 100, the player base would easily double.

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This is a video game. yes, you should never be happy to die, but no it should not be the end of the world if you do. Let the people choose between doing a hard map with NO XP GAIN / NO XP LOSS or doing super easy Pack size maps with a 78 Rot.

It isn't the end of the world if you die, you lose 10% XP. Picking and choosing removes the risk and reward aspect of it, if I could do -max maps and turn off XP gain i'd do it all the time, who cares if I die I had higher quantity so better chances at map drops. Your not seeing the failed logic in what you are suggesting and how its a BAD thing to give players the option to not take XP on a map by map basis. Players can already choose to do this by running difficult maps RIGHT after they level.

It kinda is the end of the world. You come home on a Friday night. Shitty Week, Shitty Job, Shitty Day. You log onto Path of Exile to get the last 10% to hit level 98. When you reach 95%, someone opens an ice nova box and you get 1 shotted. I'm sorry to say, but idk if that guy is going to live until the morning. Had that scare with a few of my friends. One being Kein. Love you Buddy! I'm sorry you always find a way to die in my maps and gratz on 99!!

Um, why is that failed logic? Just because 1 person doesn't like the mods, they should be able to say "hmm i don't have a good feeling about this one" and opt to not gain/lose xp from the map.

Your in a party with 5 other players. So weather your being Carried or not, you are going to get all the drops anyway.

Higher quantity isn't make or break either. I have run maps with 50% iiq and gotten 3 level 78 maps, and then running a 120% iiq and getting no maps at all.

And to your argument of "Players can already choose to do this by running difficult maps RIGHT after they level."

Have you leveled any characters above 92? If you have, you would know that this "0% xp freedom" happens so few and far between at these levels. You might be lucky to get that 0% freedom once every 2 weeks. These r the people that need this change. Yes, while leveling, you are at that "fresh leveled 0%" maybe 10 times + a week, but when the levels take longer and longer, you lose that freedom.

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It kinda is the end of the world. You come home on a Friday night. Shitty Week, Shitty Job, Shitty Day. You log onto Path of Exile to get the last 10% to hit level 98. When you reach 95%, someone opens an ice nova box and you get 1 shotted. I'm sorry to say, but idk if that guy is going to live until the morning. Had that scare with a few of my friends. One being Kein. Love you Buddy! I'm sorry you always find a way to die in my maps and gratz on 99!!

You play with random people that open boxes without IDing them? You stay in range of random boxes in parties you don't trust people in? Why should they remove the XP penalty because you as a player put yourself in a situation to fail.

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Um, why is that failed logic? Just because 1 person doesn't like the mods, they should be able to say "hmm i don't have a good feeling about this one" and opt to not gain/lose xp from the map.

Players should be able to figure out over time what mods they can do safely and what they cannot. Especially at higher levels, no excuse for a level 90+ character to not know what will or won't kill them (assuming no new content was added)

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Your in a party with 5 other players. So weather your being Carried or not, you are going to get all the drops anyway.

Not if you die in the map. You don't get anything that would of dropped for you from the point you died until they finished.

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Higher quantity isn't make or break either. I have run maps with 50% iiq and gotten 3 level 78 maps, and then running a 120% iiq and getting no maps at all.

It isn't a set science that is for sure.

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And to your argument of "Players can already choose to do this by running difficult maps RIGHT after they level."

Have you leveled any characters above 92? If you have, you would know that this "0% xp freedom" happens so few and far between at these levels. You might be lucky to get that 0% freedom once every 2 weeks. These r the people that need this change. Yes, while leveling, you are at that "fresh leveled 0%" maybe 10 times + a week, but when the levels take longer and longer, you lose that freedom.

I have not, I used to mainly play in the leagues, but this time I am playing in standard try out different things and leveling various classes to 90, maybe 90+.

I don't understand why you (and others) seem to think leveling past 90 should be some sort of free pass to do harder maps on demand. No your a higher level character, you should have more defenses, you should have more offense, you should have more buffs from party auras. There should be more things for enemies to attack, mapping in a party is SAFER, if your not mapping dumb (standing next to people and strongboxes you don't trust)

Mapping past 90 is a long journey and one that shouldn't be without a long grind, this is after all an ARPG game. Remove the penalty or give the option to disable it per map and you remove part of the journey.

What is really piss me off is that many topics brings back up by the new people but defends by the same. You can see many similar threads made by new people but its always the same who says no changes are needed, everything is fine

Its kinda getting ridiculous. Some individuals think they have more understandings in whats going on, in what is cool and what is uncool. Like I/we care about your opinion. I/we/they know better what is cool for me/us/them.

If in this thread I say Im tired of dying on desync, its makes no fun to me to unfair loosing xp and you say everything is fine, its not fine for me whatever you say. I dont give a shit about open/closed/reopened beta, that there were bigger penalties, I dont care you know. That only means it was even more unfun than now, doesnt mean it was cool

GGG, you just look how many different accounts wants something to be changed and how many different account are actuaaly likes the things as is it now. Just look thru the whole history of poe forums.

Because what I see is that every now and then new people ask for changes but debates with them still the same ones

You know what is good for one doesnt mean its good for the rest, right? If there are more people want changes than the ones who says its ok as it is, and if you want your player base to grow - you know what to do.

Weather or not it was a random person, or a drunk friend opening the box on accident instead of ID'ing. But no matter how you die, you just dug yourself a 5 hour grind in order to finish the night WHERE YOU BEGAN lol.

Thats so bad. If anything, maybe make the penalty a Base number, instead of a straight 10%. Because 10% to a level 50 is about 5 minutes worth of xp, but 10% at level 90+ is 5 hours.

This is unfair, we are putting way more time into our game. and 10% is a hell of a lot of XP.

Maybe it should take your XP/Hour and upon death you lose 1 Hour worth of XP. But having the goal in your mind to hit level 98 by sunday, and you die on friday night.. Guess what... your not leveling on sunday. Thats really a shame. Because the people ARE putting in the time.

Really, at level 100, those with the Most Deaths can be said to have the most time playing.

Im at work, to be continues

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GGG, you just look how many different accounts wants something to be changed and how many different account are actuaaly likes the things as is it now. Just look thru the whole history of poe forums.

If GGG listened to every single feedback thread on the forums, the client would be trusted for actions, the game would have an AH, surgeons mod would be removed, and no penalty for deing ever. This is just this weeks topics, if we go back further it could be a number of things.

Just because quite a few people ask for a change to be made doesn't mean it is the right direction for GGG to go. Only GGG can know what direction they want the game to go, this isn't a kick starter funded game or early access where the developers care what the average joe thinks, this is PoE, a hardcore oldschool ARPG game. This isn't D3 with its cartoons and crappy developers that eventually caved to the majority request, the majority don't pay for this game to be developed.

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You know what is good for one doesnt mean its good for the rest, right? If there are more people want changes than the ones who says its ok as it is, and if you want your player base to grow - you know what to do.

I don't think they give a fuck if they grow the playerbase but lose those players that have supported the game over the years. Players like myself will support the game as LONG as they don't cater to all these bullshit changes people suggest.

Feedback is appreciated and reviewed, but this isn't a democracy.

as for @levy42088

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Weather or not it was a random person, or a drunk friend opening the box on accident instead of ID'ing. But no matter how you die, you just dug yourself a 5 hour grind in order to finish the night WHERE YOU BEGAN lol.

Except that isn't why this thread was created, if your specifically addressing that the XP penalty shoulnd't exists because of factors you can choose to control rather then factors players cant (desync) then I guess we'll listen.

How you die matters, if you die because of something you can control that is a completely different argument then deing from something you cannot. If anything your comments here go to prove WHY the penalty should exists.

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Thats so bad. If anything, maybe make the penalty a Base number, instead of a straight 10%. Because 10% to a level 50 is about 5 minutes worth of xp, but 10% at level 90+ is 5 hours.

Again, your character should be much stronger at level 90 then it was at level 50, so yes it should be more penalizing when you die.

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This is unfair, we are putting way more time into our game. and 10% is a hell of a lot of XP.

Ok so don't play with drunken people that yolo click every box.

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Maybe it should take your XP/Hour and upon death you lose 1 Hour worth of XP. But having the goal in your mind to hit level 98 by sunday, and you die on friday night.. Guess what... your not leveling on sunday. Thats really a shame. Because the people ARE putting in the time.

I think your onto something here, potentially a loss of 1 hours worth of previous playtime, I think the mechanic to add would be difficult.


Part of the reason why the current system works is it becomes more penalizing over time, as you build a stronger character so does the penalty scale with it.