exp penalty
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Wow what a lot of text!
I like things as they are.. I would not play so carefully and cautiously as I do if it was easier. I don't mind dying to be honest though, so you loose 2 bars.. Not the end of theworld Forum signature
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" It's not a rhetorical question. Why should a penalty that's meant for competitive players penalize players that aren't in that category too? Sure, there shouldn't be differences in rules between players, so that no one can profit from these differences, but that doesn't mean we cannot have intelligent penalties that have the wanted effects on the relevant targets without frustrating many others in the process. This is why we are trying to think alternative penalties. " What matters isn't the actual harshness of the penalty, but how the player feels it. With the current system, you can have less experience at the end of your session than you started it with. That's something that can easily cause a player to rage quit. With a penalty on the experience you gain, that's less frustrating, because your bar percentage hasn't decreased, even if you actually require more experience to get to the next level than in the first case. " This is where you are wrong. Even if the maths prove that you have a harsher penalty, if it is administered the right way, then it isn't as frustrating. Let's get back to my mario example. Between systematically getting sent back to level 1 on death and being set back a whole level when you die, which one is going to hit the bin first? The latter, because you feel that you are regressing, despite the first one actually being a harsher penalty. |
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You definitely don't want the scenario where a player can end up feeling punished for even attempting boss encounters.
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" No, it's not. " No, they don't emphasize experience in any manner. I'll try bolding, underlining, and using caps to help you read: THE EXAMPLES YOU GAVE EMPHASIZE DOWNTIME. Downtime leads to more than just experience or money, they lead towards PROGRESS. If one or more of red team die, blue team now has a chance to get: 1. experience 2. money 3. destroy enemy property, like towers or buildings All of the above three are progress. I specifically remember you stating that you don't believe nor want a penalty that results in "negative progress", or the loss of progress. Yet all of your examples have this. " One nitpick, just because something is limited does not mean it is limited by time. If minions can be killed, they can also be healed by Rejuvenation Totems. I used this the moment I noticed their life could possibly go down, and even then I just clear the whole area before touching them to limit the amount of damage they are threatened by. More to look forward for Vagan and Vorici missions for me. " I didn't think of that. If that is true, this penalty could possibly replace the current one. But if it does, it will need to stack, causing more and more reduced gain. But not necessarily how much. If you end up with 0% gain, there's no further way to penalize the character, and death still means nothing. It would simply have to increase how long the penalty lasts. " You don't know the answer. The penalty is not meant to target certain players, playstyles, or anything specifically besides death. There is a reason it is called a "death penalty". If you die, progress is supposed to either be lost or hampered. It shouldn't have any regard to who or what the player or character is, where they are, or how they died. " It does matter how the player feels it, and if they know that they're going to progress much slower they'll have to be just as careful as if they had just outright lost the experience. But if a player keeps dying, they'll eventually just leave. But if they keep dying, they'll hit the 0% point and never lose anything but a portal from death. Seeing how death then means nothing, they can then farm Catacombs, Dominus, or anything else for drops without having to worry about experience. In short, if the player knows they've still had the same loss but it just reflects differently, they'll still act the same way. " Lol, what a load of bullshit. If I knew I was only sent back one level, I'd take that over starting over at level 1. This being true from level 3 onward. I'd love to hear why you think you're right and I'm wrong, especially after posting that shit. "Maths" 1 level =/= level 1 |
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XP penalty should be removed altogether. Those who like to punished for desync and minor mistakes can keep playing on hardcore. Just because you make a minor mistake in several hours of gameplay shouldn't result in losing all the experience gained in those hours. Besides this game should encourage players from tackling high end maps and difficult bosses. It shouldn't be encouraging drones who stick to 'Dominus Runs with dedicated mf' and get a mjolnir and a Shavs with no risk at all.
So two things: Remove xp penalty upon death (or make it so you regain any lost xp upon killing the enemy that killed you) Nerf Dominus Runs. People who play on hardcore, do not comment here. This does not concern you |
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Natharias, I don't understand your objection. You might be objecting to something I didn't actually say. I was merely showing examples of games where large penalties to experience gain aren't present while avoidance of death is. I'm not disagreeing that the games emphasize other things as well (such as downtime), to the contrary, those other areas of emphasis are part of the reason why experience loss isn't necessary: the game simply gets players to value other things.
Path of Exile could adopt qualities like, for example, having bosses heal to full or reset after killing a player. This would mimic an instanced boss encounter, rendering the death-zerg completely ineffective and eliminating the need for any penalty at all. The boss simply won't die, and the player simply won't progress unless they deplete 100% of the bosses HP without dying. " In a previous post, I mentioned that players don't need to be sent back any farther than the point where the correlation between their choices and their death break down. This point historically has been the beginning of the level or a continue checkpoint, etc. I'm describing an ideal scenario that does indeed involve an optimized amount of "negative progression" (like the boss resetting idea I mentioned above). My idea with the temporary penalty to experience gain does not lead to this ideal scenario, it's just (in my opinion) better than the current penalty. |
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I'll elaborate a little more on that "correlation between choice and death" thing with an example:
When someone dies on level 3 of Super Mario Bros, their death probably had very little to do with the choices they made on level 2 (the previous level). Sure, they might have been able to bring a fire flower from level 2 or something, but for the most part, level 3 is a microcosm with respect to level 2. Nobody can fault the game developers for deciding to send you back to the beginning of level 3 rather than back to the beginning of level 2. In Path of Exile, dying on one map probably has very little to do with the choices you made on those previous 10 maps that you lost experience for. In a way, it's like the example of getting sent back to level 2 when you die on level 3. People naturally feel over-punished. This is what I think MrTremere is talking about. The "feeling" of regression is that conscious or subconscious acknowledgement that there was little to no correlation between their death and what their death costs them in the form of punishment. It's our game ethics yelling at us. |
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" ...and why shouldn't players that play hardcore comment in here? Oh, wait, because you don't want them too. " Then read everything you said and how I responded from the beginning. If you still don't understand it, then I don't understand how you've been posting this entire time. I find it impossible for both of us to be posting walls of text if one of us didn't understand, even in the slightest, what the other was saying. |
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Natharias, I appreciate your point of view, but when rude things are said it takes away from the productivity of the conversation. Your comments and criticism are valuable, which is why I took the time that I did to try to clear things up.
The point I was trying to make honestly isn't important enough to get worked up over, so I'll concede that I'm just too stupid to understand what you're saying so we can move on. When people (myself and others) are trying to challenge a very strong status quo, we can't let anything slide, even details that might seem trivial. At the end of the day, we have to convince a company to change something, and that company has a lot of reasons to doubt the value of what we suggest. Last edited by Khalixxa#0534 on Dec 16, 2014, 4:26:28 AM
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Natharias, you are missing one of the core aspects of psychology : we are not machines.
From a machine's point of view, indeed, losing a level is better than starting from scratch. From a player's point of view, though, things are much different. When you get sent back to a respawning point further than the one you used prior, you get a whole lot more frustration than from getting back to one that was simply "very far". And if you then get sent back even further, that's probably a point at which you either rage quit or at least ponder doing so. In my case, I uninstalled Path of Exile yesterday evening. Basically, I died three times in the same map, twice being due to screen freezes, and once being my own mistake. Had I not logged in yesterday evening, I would have stayed at a higher amount of experience than what I had at the end of that session. Had a penalty reducing the amount of experience I gain from future monsters been used, I would have been closer to the next level. Not a whole lot, sure, as my progression would have been seriously hampered for future play sessions, but I would still have been closer. That's a few hours of gaming that have been literally wasted : negative experience, almost no gear advancement, and the enjoyment of the session is gone. Do I want to waste my time? No. Uninstalled. It's a shame. Path of Exile is otherwise a great game. PS : you can also think of it as the same thing as restarting something from scratch when your attempts at correcting mistakes are only making it worse. It's the way the human mind works. |
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