JakeAlmightys LL Tank Wander - prepping for Hall of GRANDMASTERS! updated WIP

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Chundadragon wrote:
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I guess i just don't understand what you are trying to achieve at this point. You've got one of the best PVE builds out right now with literally the BIS gear for the build so why not be content wrecking all the PVE guys that face your grandmaster submission with this build and call it a day?


As it stands, his PvE build would get wrecked pretty hard by some of the popular puncture builds and perhaps some of the melee.

If you're building for Grandmasters then inherently you are building for PvP from the start =)


And by casters
It's hard to remember what you have forgotten
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Why are police looking for missing people? None of them were missing last time I saw them
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JakeAlmighty wrote:

hi Wiesl,


first off thank you for the great post. I'll respond to a couple of yours points with stuff I'd like to try out but first i want to reiterate my opening part of the build -

there is no way to build a character to actually win against PVP players who adapt their build to your GM. It's not possible. Whatever your character is weak to, they will switch into their answers to you and they will dominate. This is exacerbated by the fact that these people will take on the map in groups, they will have different builds and every counter available to them, and it is just completely impossible to keep any advantage.

This is displayed especially in the flasks - Temporal Chains is obviously utterly devastating to a lot of builds (including this one) but the fact is I can't use an anti-curse flask. I decided not to even bother including Temp Chains in my setup because every single player who meets him WILL have that flask and it will do nothing.

The truth in the end, is that anybody who has PVPed a lot and actively counters peoples builds as they go is going to easily cruise through the Hall of GMs without trouble. Among other counters, anybody who can land a Bear Trap on this GM has him dead whenever they like, even just temp chains will be lethal if they are prepared to bypass her defenses. (ie they can just EK spam her dead at that point) There is nothing that can be done about this, because you can't be invincible to everything in PVP.

So I don't plan on beating those people - there is no point. Instead we build vs normal players from average gear to expensive gear, who are in PvE setups and are mostly going to be trying to beat the map without switching up too much stuff. They don't carry a large pile of gems to swap in and out in their inventory, and they certainly don't have a very firm grasp of what they should do to counter something they start to fail against. This is what I mean by being a "Raid Boss" rather than a PVP player with an AI. A big boss in an MMO always has strategies that counter him, if the players do the correct things, they will win. The same is true here.

I do agree that lowlife is not the style of play with the "least weaknesses" as it were - but it is the group of builds that I play so I'll be staying within that realm. If I ever do actual PVP seriously (apparently the PVP seasons are actually coming at long last) then that will not be all low life ofc. (but that is a whole different thing, where one side is not gimped out of flasks and unable to swap his skills in any way)



On to your suggestions - I like the Alpha Howl idea. I will check out what kind of dps I can hit without CoE on and if it's tenable that could be an excellent way to address the freezing problem. Dream Fragments is problematic as I currently cap my resistances with the rings, as well as it offering much needed mana regeneration and also dps. The spell damage on Onslaught Song would go to waste, but it's not a big deal in the end.

The 6l is open to revision. (skills that have been suggested to me in the last few hours - Barrage/Power Siphon/Elemental Hit) Pierce is certainly something to think about, were it real PVP I feel like it's something I'd rather carry in inventory and then (ie) swap it in as soon as I see Ice Walls start coming down. Alas we don't have that luxury - it may be safer to include it, at the same time a good chunk of the playerbase has not a clue that Frost Wall is even a skill worth having a gem for.


Spell casters and trappers are the biggest weaknesses I identified in my own build, and I'm not 100% sure whether it is worth devoting precious resources/space to trying to shore it up. It is difficult to get much spell block in this setup, and we are unable to push our elemental resists very far above cap as we can't use topaz/ruby/sapphire etc.



thank you for the feedback though, let's do what we can to shore up the weak spots. (starting with I'll look into the alpha's howl plan) I think in the end though we just have to accept that anybody willing to counter you (vs an opponent who is unable to adapt to the ruleset) is going to be able to win fairly easily.



Hi Jake

Thank you for your response.
First i wanted to point out, that you are absolutly right when you statet, that every build has a counter and can be beaten by an other specific counter build.
When i was talking about my ideas wanted to point out issues about that your grandmaster can be cheesed - and i don't think you want this to be posssible (this can be seen, when you were talking about keeping your life slightly above 10% so that you can't be culled by culling strike support gem)

I like that you appreciate the Alphas Howl idea - it also greatly helps you with aura reservation. I have looked at your new tree and really liek how you fit in piercing shots. Droping power charges and fussilade was the right choice i feel.
Regardless a feel crystal skin would definitly worth it to pick up - 75% avoid beeing chilled is a very strong stat in a PVP scenario.
Piercing shots + pierce gem is not only a counter to frostwall, it is also great against partys, when you can hit multiple targets behind an exile - no one will be 100% save from your attacks - pierce is an effective dps increase against partys.


So lets talk about your attack skill:
First of all we should state, that elemental damage is more threatening to players than physical. Physical is also very good against low armour characters, but almost useless against high armour characters and people who can permanently use immortal call. So i personaly would suggest keeping the focus on elemental by using elemental conversion.

The most single strongest element in an PVP scenario is Cold, because of it's status aliments. It is also a well known fact, that most PVE players kinda "neglect" their cold resists by prefering purity of lighting and purity of fire over purity of ice and only a few players are using saphire flasks.

My suggestion for links would be:
-Barrage
- Weapon Elemental Damage
- Increased Critical Strike Damage
- Additional Accuracy
- Block Chance Reduction
- Cold Penetration

30%-40% Pierce from passives is sufficient to bypass frostwalls and hurting a partys (it is also more threatening to people when your attacks don't allways pierce, but the fact that they CAN PIERCE really f*cks poeples minds :))

Cold penetration boosts your effective damage through the roof. People will only have 40% cold resistance against your attacks and get chilled, frozen and even shocked.
Why using Barrage over Elemental Hit or Power Siphon? EH and PS is only 1 single projectle and 1 possible hit on a target. Barrage has multiple projectiles (that can pierce), which is more effective against groups and against single target because of the simple fact that it has a "cascade effect".

If the first projectile of Barrage hits, all of them will potentially hit - if the first one crits, all others will crit. The first projectile shocks and chills they target for sure for a short time at least. They second projectile hit, will hit a already shocked target and deal 50% more damage. Thanks to cold pen and high elemental damage the target will get frozen, if it is not immune and they chill and shock duration gets extended by a few seconds. So you see Barrage is far superior.



You really should optimize your auras through max cold damage. You already get the lighting conversion from physical from the passive tree, which is more than sufficient for shocking.

I would suggest changing "Wrath" to "Hatred". You can keep HoI if you can, but maybe you want to fit in Purity of Lighting instead (thanks to Alphas Howl this should be possible) to get a little bit more survivability against Lighting-Spellcasters, which are you greatest weakness.


You were talking about resistance issues. Maybe, since you don't use power charges any more and get Alphas Howl you actually don't need Auxium any more - so it would be great if you can get resistances from your belt (Crystal Skin + Alphas Howl gives you 75% to avoid beeing chilled and freeze immunity)
If you fit a resistance aura in too instead of HoI you won't have resistance issues any more i guess.



Ok, thats it for now. I must say that it is greatly fun to interact in this post of yours - looking forward to a great result!

Wiesl you oversee the fact that freeze and chilled time is calctulated with the incoming cold, therefore barrage is bullshit
And Puncture Bow builds are countered with Ondar's, it will be hard for them to hit him

Caster and Melee Evasion Guys are the thing he can't counter
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Ceratoidei wrote:
Wiesl you oversee the fact that freeze and chilled time is calctulated with the incoming cold, therefore barrage is bullshit


I would recommend to take a look at the POE Wiki or the mechanics thread to further discuss this:
I quickly done some math and actually Jake only need to deal 700 cold damage, taking resistances already into account, in one single hit to freeze a target for 1 second if the target he is facing has about 5000 max. life (i would consider this amount of life on an average endgame-character is quit realistic).

Dealing 700 Cold Damage in one single hit with a "Foe Bite" should easily be possible :)
So even the so called "bullshit skill" Barrage should be able to freeze and chill poeple effectivly. When you take the cascade effect into consideration you are able to freeze-lock with Barrage.


A PVP scenario is much different from a regular PVE scenario. Monsters in PVE have a lot more effective life and a greater max. life pool. You actually won't be able to freeze everything in high level maps, because the base life of the mobs is to high.

I would recommend to test it out so you can see the effect yourself.



I don't say Power Siphon is a bad option, it is also worth to consider taking because of culling strike against low life targets and the 120% base damage modifier.
Last edited by Wiesl_1404 on Oct 19, 2014, 12:36:13 PM
One thing I haven't seen brought up yet is the weakness to whirling blades. A fast whirling blades is able to reposition quicker then barrage can fire. I experienced this with an aps of 4ish on barrage with no lmp/gmp. I think gmp / lmp is almost mandatory to deny them breathing room. Even then they might be able to go back and forth 180 degrees and constantly keep your character turning. While doing damage with just wb.
Barrage is absolute shit.

@posts above, frostwall doesn't block projectiles.
I am sending you this message to let you know that I have removed your signature as it is designed to mislead others. Please refrain from using similar signatures in the future. - Rob_GGG
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Skyforth wrote:
Barrage is absolute shit.

@posts above, frostwall doesn't block projectiles.


It does.
It's hard to remember what you have forgotten
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Why are police looking for missing people? None of them were missing last time I saw them
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Skyforth wrote:
@posts above, frostwall doesn't block projectiles.


Permeability: Players, monsters and most projectiles can not pass through a frost wall. There are some exceptions: teleporting and leaping skills, and projectiles that pierce can pass through a Frost Wall. Frost Walls are Impermeable to all other movement and projectiles, even if they are originated by the caster.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Frost_Wall


Stop post pls, when you have no Clue about Game Mechanics.

Thx
Last edited by Lightshard on Oct 19, 2014, 2:00:43 PM
Once I get 100 (a ways away yet, tho I'll be doing heavy mapping this week to put some exp in - currently 24% away from 97) I will test barrage/PS/ele hit for dps and viability of use.


Picked up

for cheap earlier, would be recolored to either RBGG (RM/Wrath/Grace/HoI) or RGGG (Hatred over Wrath), and then use a RRBB Lioneye for the BM setup.

I will test it out at 100, but it may be too much of a dps loss vs CoE, I dunno yet. The freeze/chill stuff is definitely tempting, and the bonus aura levels are of course welcome.


Another side benefit - the BM/RM would be in +1 boot, giving us more unreserved HP to work with to remain uncullable. (just written in blood 2 nodes should definitely be fine in that case)

The evasion is also a bonus. The thing I DO worry about in that plan, is that we're dropping a LOT of es - 0 es on boot and 0 es on helm at that point. The 30% es shield nodes get better relative to a general es% node and could help give a bit more es in that situation.



I definitely like Cold Pen in the 6l. LMP could also be a good option to help with the actually hitting people. Keep up the good debate people, thanks again.
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