Just to note: I mentioned map-like content, but did not mention corrupted areas specifically for a reason. Map-like content needn't necessarily be maps--only map-like. Random areas with random pack compositions and difficulty modifiers, but most importantly, lend a degree of control to player.
Corrupt areas, on the other hand, are randomly located within core content, and for this reason do not lend the same degree of variety or control players find when mapping. Players are subject to their spawn rates and modifiers, not the other way around. They are also irrevocably connected to fragment acquisition, thus limiting further the degree of influence players can have over the areas (as well as being generally overturned). They can be a nice break from normal content, but can never truly supplement the level grind <- and that I think is what we're really after here.
Spoiler
Just some rough and rushed brainstorming while my wife pokes me to get me back outside and back to work ^-^
It just so happens maps themselves are the most ideal way to meet those criteria, though they have many properties that could be altered for not-maps maps so they are different from map maps--random zone and pack composition (not listed on the "map"), limited to 2 mods, no bosses, no iiq bonus, etc.. They would exist solely for variety, to supplement core content when you would otherwise be farming Ledge or Sarn or wherever for several levels. Because they would offer no greater rewards, and actually have a cost, they could be abundant and cheap (again, I'm thinking between alt to alch depending upon level.. something that they wouldn't just be free, but are able to be run at the players delight without frustration). At least, that my ideal idea for supplementary content--purposed solely to provide variety, while being unobtrusive, and therefore not balanced around any other factors besides "fun."
Devolving Wilds
Land
“T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.”
Last edited by CanHasPants on Sep 2, 2014, 2:17:25 PM
Just to note: I mentioned map-like content, but did not mention corrupted areas specifically for a reason. Map-like content needn't necessarily be maps--only map-like. Random areas with random pack compositions and difficulty modifiers, but most importantly, lend a degree of control to player.
Corrupt areas, on the other hand, are randomly located within core content, and for this reason do not lend the same degree of variety or control players find when mapping. Players are subject to their spawn rates and modifiers, not the other way around. They are also irrevocably connected to fragment acquisition, thus limiting further the degree of influence players can have over the areas (as well as being generally overturned). They can be a nice break from normal content, but can never truly supplement the level grind <- and that I think is what we're really after here.
Spoiler
Just some rough and rushed brainstorming while my wife pokes me to get me back outside and back to work ^-^
It just so happens maps themselves are the most ideal way to meet those criteria, though they have many properties that could be altered for not-maps maps so they are different from map maps--random zone and pack composition (not listed on the "map"), limited to 2 mods, no bosses, no iiq bonus, etc.. They would exist solely for variety, to supplement core content when you would otherwise be farming Ledge or Sarn or wherever for several levels. Because they would offer no greater rewards, and actually have a cost, they could be abundant and cheap (again, I'm thinking between alt to alch depending upon level.. something that they wouldn't just be free, but are able to be run at the players delight without frustration). At least, that my ideal idea for supplementary content--purposed solely to provide variety, while being unobtrusive, and therefore not balanced around any other factors besides "fun."
The corrupted area availability can be changed (master missions? Could be a good reason to put Zana outside or just give more variety to the rest of the masters). The mods should be rerollable like a magic map (if they are not yet, I don't know). The areas could have more purposes than mere fragment looting (Vaal Gems would be a good beginning, I like them even if they should improve).
Anyway, by themselves are not enough, I agree, but again, this is not the only possibility.
And I'd rather not put a parallel system, just replace the whole act structure (in D3: ROS and TL2 the new systems outclassed the old ones quickly, so it's useless to preserve them).
The map flavor should be restricted mostly to maps, to avoid a uniqueness loss.
Add a Forsaken Masters questline
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2297942
Last edited by NeroNoah on Sep 2, 2014, 2:52:22 PM
What I mean is, there should probably be a mechanic to make rerolling quicker for subsequent characters of the same league. Kind of like let's say unlocking a level based checkpoint system.
Here's this as an idea. Upon entering merciless with a character you now unlock the possibility to start a new character at level 35 with cruel mode unlocked. The character has no gear, so you would have to gear him from your stash, and it has no quests done in normal mode (so you still need to run through that to get the quest rewards this new char has however all the normal way points.
You might have something similar with starting directly in merciless if you hit say level 90 on a character in said league.
The idea being that subsequent rerolling allow you somehow to cut at least a little of the repetitive, easy stuff and jump back to where your challenge lies.
What I mean is, there should probably be a mechanic to make rerolling quicker for subsequent characters of the same league. Kind of like let's say unlocking a level based checkpoint system.
Here's this as an idea. Upon entering merciless with a character you now unlock the possibility to start a new character at level 35 with cruel mode unlocked. The character has no gear, so you would have to gear him from your stash, and it has no quests done in normal mode (so you still need to run through that to get the quest rewards this new char has however all the normal way points.
You might have something similar with starting directly in merciless if you hit say level 90 on a character in said league.
The idea being that subsequent rerolling allow you somehow to cut at least a little of the repetitive, easy stuff and jump back to where your challenge lies.
Well, sounds good. Builds get fun at Cruel range in general (I like to play with two or three main skills).
It doesn't solve the repetition, though, it just moves it.
Add a Forsaken Masters questline
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2297942
This has always been my impression of the game, and even though I currently feel that the game is in a much better spot than before, this issue still stands.
[...]
This means that many average players like myself will be stuck in a loop where reaching Maps and end game happens very rarely.
The undeniable impact of the MMORPG development model (specifically the 'themepark' model) has led to a conflation and confusion of just what 'end-game' actually is and what that means for just what the 'game' actually is in respect to similar-enough online multi-player games. Path of Exile is a game that suffers from this problem, however, much unlike a great many MMORPGs and ARPGs like Diablo III, I don't think we can say that the 'game' content of PoE is trivialised like other games with purported 'end-game' content. All things considered, it seems to me that you and many other people could benefit from reading Charan's post about 'post-game' versus 'end-game'.
With that said, I'd be inclined to agree with your 3rd idea in allowing maps to occur sooner and given that the story has been experienced. Given the narrative it just doesn't make sense that players should have to wait to fight Atziri on Cruel or even Normal if they wanted to -after all, the last three letters of ARPG and that means a legitimate focus on story and, truly, one that isn't unduly gated by game mechanics.
If players were allowed access to maps at earlier difficulty tiers it stands to reason that something meaningful would have to happen to experience/items/access to difficulty tiers to prevent exploits. One option would be to prevent map exclusive items from dropping in lower-tier versions to preserve the integrity of the item's exclusivity. Another option would be to cut off experience past a certain point to prevent undue over-levelling, viz. over-levelling that wasn't a result of what I'd call 'natural play' in clearing but not repeating all of the zones, Corrupted areas and Forsaken Masters missions that are come upon. A further option would be to force completion of particular story-related maps to access higher tiers of difficulty. These are just off the top of my head and, of course, all of these can be done together or separately.
When it comes down to brass tacks I'm totally on board with allowing more players to see more cool things like maps. But, more than that, the notion of 'end game' and that being where the game actually starts needs to be put to fucking bed. Playing the game up to and through the most challenging content is the point, not experiencing a tiny slice of content that is supposed to be what the gameplay is all about.
Last edited by TheBitterness on Sep 4, 2014, 1:02:24 AM
This has always been my impression of the game, and even though I currently feel that the game is in a much better spot than before, this issue still stands.
[...]
This means that many average players like myself will be stuck in a loop where reaching Maps and end game happens very rarely.
The undeniable impact of the MMORPG development model (specifically the 'themepark' model) has led to a conflation and confusion of just what 'end-game' actually is and what that means for just what the 'game' actually is in respect to similar-enough online multi-player games. Path of Exile is a game that suffers from this problem, however, much unlike a great many MMORPGs and ARPGs like Diablo III, I don't think we can say that the 'game' content of PoE is trivialised like other games with purported 'end-game' content. All things considered, it seems to me that you and many other people could benefit from reading Charan's post about 'post-game' versus 'end-game'.
With that said, I'd be inclined to agree with your 3rd idea in allowing maps to occur sooner and given that the story has been experienced. Given the narrative it just doesn't make sense that players should have to wait to fight Atziri on Cruel or even Normal if they wanted to -after all, the last three letters of ARPG and that means a legitimate focus on story and, truly, one that isn't unduly gated by game mechanics.
If players were allowed access to maps at earlier difficulty tiers it stands to reason that something meaningful would have to happen to experience/items/access to difficulty tiers to prevent exploits. One option would be to prevent map exclusive items from dropping in lower-tier versions to preserve the integrity of the item's exclusivity. Another option would be to cut off experience past a certain point to prevent undue over-levelling, viz. over-levelling that wasn't a result of what I'd call 'natural play' in clearing but not repeating all of the zones, Corrupted areas and Forsaken Masters missions that are come upon. A further option would be to force completion of particular story-related maps to access higher tiers of difficulty. These are just off the top of my head and, of course, all of these can be done together or separately.
When it comes down to brass tacks I'm totally on board with allowing more players to see more cool things like maps. But, more than that, the notion of 'end game' and that being where the game actually starts needs to be put to fucking bed. Playing the game up to and through the most challenging content is the point, not experiencing a tiny slice of content that is supposed to be what the gameplay is all about.
You are right in the fact that the game-play aspect of the game is not different in the early stages of the game compared to merciless and maps. However the economy is vastly different there.
The amount of wealth a level 65+ generates doesnt even come close to compare to what a low level character gets. Therefore, as economy is a big part of the game, especially in obtaning those items and gems that define your build (uniques, multistrike, cwdt, certain rares, etc) playing the late-game compared to the early game is definitely a lot different.
Also, maps in general, with their bosses and randomness also provide a good chunk of content which many players will rarely see.
Again this is more valid in hardcore than in softcore, but really applies to all the game...
This has always been my impression of the game, and even though I currently feel that the game is in a much better spot than before, this issue still stands.
Back-story: I started playing in Beyond league, a start from scratch just like everyone else. Of course I had to play conservatively, and try to outlevel the zones I am in by a little just to be safe. My character died at level 62 after a total amount played of 20 hours (solo progression). I learned something from my death (getting 1 shot by Perpetus means I have to either avoid him or gain better physical burst mitigation by that time, via Armor or CWDT), still what saddens me is that in order to put into application what I just leared, I am going to first have to spend at least 10-15 hours to level a character back to that point.
The description of the issue.
PoE is a game made around building characters and taking them to the end game where the loot chase commences. Most builds only start functioning at around level 55-60 where you have enough points to be able to get defenses and offenses from the tree. Also a good number of 4L items are necessary.
It is pretty obvious that PoE is a game made around rerolling new characters very often. This means replaying through the Normal-Cruel-Merciless cycle quite often.
For Normal mode, the length is pretty much natural. It needs to introduce players to the game and for the new player it needs to feel like a full game. On the other hand, Merciless is where the character build becomes to shape up, all the challenges and constraints are in full effect and it's effectively where the most difficult content lies.
And then we have Cruel: which serves little purpose. Leveling is pretty slow (usually from 35-55 - so only 20 levels, compared to 35 for normal and potentially 45 for merciless). The items found in Cruel are of no use late-game, they are too weak to pose any late-game need. However, Cruel can be pretty difficult (especially act 3 in the later parts). Many characters can die in A3X Cruel which kind of makes you spend even more time grinding some extra levels in there and acquiring gear just to overcome the difficulty.
What this all means for the player?
This means that many average players like myself will be stuck in a loop where reaching Maps and end game happens very rarely. Between the average length of the Challenge Leagues which last too little for people with busy schedules, as well as Hardcore mode (which is fun but) can kill your characters forcing you to start over, many players may never get to experience what GGG actually designed as the full game experience.
For the experienced players this means that the hurdle of leveling needs to be done over and over again at each new league and each hardcore death. Not a difficult thing but a chore nontheless.
In Diablo 2, we had "rushing" which was never fixed by any of the content patches added, which means this little exploit was considered to be a beneficial thing to the game. Giving (veteran) players the opportunity to start of with a level 60sh character after just a couple hours was a good perk.
Possible solutions.
The first solution I am thinking about is nerfing Act 3 Cruel - especially the A3X content. That's the main culprit of delay. If that part is easier players can transition a lot quicker in merciless.
The second solution would be the leveling curve which can be improved.
The third would be to give access to maps a lot sooner. Effectivelly bringing the end-game closer to the early game.
I want to hear everyone's opinion on this, do you feel these points are valid?
Solution to look at : Make Quests on cruel and merciless optional, and just make bosses mandatory.. WOULD BE AWESOME!
