Getting to the end game takes too long

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Real_Wolf wrote:
Yes, it will. But this is like asking the developer of a game like Mirrors edge to add more timed challenges to the game. Sure, it already has a few things you can try to beat once you've finished it, but there isn't really any new content at that point, you have FINISHED the game.

I don't mind adding more things to the actual game, and I can accept maps as something 'different' to keep people busy if not wanting to reroll, but the idea of trying to make the actual game shorter to get to the placeholder just seems backwards to me



It's only backwards if the endgame goal isn't to encourage players to reroll new characters if they so happen to find a cool new item.


You haven't even addressed the main issue here. If there is true build diversity in the game, shortening the distance to get to endgame means absolutely nothing. Diablo 2 literally took no time to get to endgame content, and yet people played that for years despite everyone figuring out how to glitch rush their way to endgame.


Even despite a plethora of uniques/RWs being flooded into the economy, people continued to play Diablo 2 because of the solid gameplay, rewarding item finding, smooth progression, and literally countless of builds that were capable of doing Ubers/Baal/etc.


Even in CB it was easy to reach end game within a few days, and yet people loved the game. GGG's artificial extension of the endgame (with currency and RNG gating) just shows that they've lost sight on what the game truly should be about. It's like Chris Wilson is so obsessed with killing/challenging players through anyway possible that he forgot the game should actually be fun (which has steadily decreased in entertainment value since OB).
Last edited by allbusiness on Sep 1, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
D2 is a very unique and odd example for you to be giving.

Lets see, D2 classic was very popular. How many builds did it have? There was WW barb, Hammerdin, Orb sorc, Javazon, and caller barb. That was pretty much it. Variety? Nope not really, maybe in some pvp but even pvp wise there wasn't much. Variety? Nope all you did was cow runs or chaos sanctuary runs.

So if you are wanting to go back to that we should get rid of the builds that are currently playable and viable (when we consider viable to be 'kill dom in merc' which is what it meant in D2), and also remove the whole maps situation so the only thing you can do at the 'endgame' is repeatedly go and kill dom.

That sounds like a bad idea actually. Lets not do that. So lets not try to compare D2 which WAS the above to PoE
"
Real_Wolf wrote:
D2 is a very unique and odd example for you to be giving.

Lets see, D2 classic was very popular. How many builds did it have? There was WW barb, Hammerdin, Orb sorc, Javazon, and caller barb. That was pretty much it. Variety? Nope not really, maybe in some pvp but even pvp wise there wasn't much. Variety? Nope all you did was cow runs or chaos sanctuary runs.

So if you are wanting to go back to that we should get rid of the builds that are currently playable and viable (when we consider viable to be 'kill dom in merc' which is what it meant in D2), and also remove the whole maps situation so the only thing you can do at the 'endgame' is repeatedly go and kill dom.

That sounds like a bad idea actually. Lets not do that. So lets not try to compare D2 which WAS the above to PoE



What in the fuck?


Trapsin, Kicksin, Chaos WW Sin, Zealer, Bow Pally, Smiter, Hammerdin, FoH, Throw Barb, WW, Beserker, Singer, Bowzons and all if its variations, Java, Meteor/Orb, Lightning Sorc, Melee Enchantress, Concentrate Barb, Were Druid, Windy Druid, Bone Necro, Summon Necro, Poison Necro are just basic builds that are fully capable of doing endgame scenarios with the right gear (and it isn't even much).


I didn't even get into shit like gear enabled characters like the Rainbow Paladin (Zealer variation that relied on ele dmg and on hit procs), Dual Dream characters, Dragoon (Lancer Barb), MF Barb (Item Find), Fire Claw Druid, Ele Caster Druid, Tri-Ele Sorc, Bow Sorc (extremely possible and end game viable), V/T's who were capable of doing PvM, hell even dumb stuff like Werebear or Spearzon and make it work up to Ubers with the correct gear (fuck all you need is a lifetap wand for most builds and uber is ez mode).

And PvP not having diversity? Yeah, try again. Depending on what the rulesets are, you can have an insane amount of build diversity. Bow Barbs for example despite being the #1 most expensive PvP build in the game outside of like BvC, pretty much shits on almost everything with tele and poison charms.


Using D2 classic to bolster your arguments is just demonstrating how bad PoE's build diversity really is. PoE should be building on D2 LoD's success, not fucking going backwards. Since OB, it has gone backwards multiple times in so many departments it's ridiculous. The fact that you are comparing PoE's build diversity and game diversity to D2 Classic which was released in fucking 2000 should be a redflag already.


And even if we're using D2 Classic as the standard here, which we shouldn't, I can almost guarantee that D2 Classic has more endgame viable builds than PoE does.
Last edited by allbusiness on Sep 2, 2014, 12:34:43 AM
Didn't play LoD, really didn't like the online play for it. Played a lot of classic though.

And I can gaurentee you that the number of builds in D2 classic, which itself was very popular, is significantly less than in PoE. Those builds I listed there are the endgame builds that people used. You can add in a few oddities such as necro with poison nova, and the fireball sorc, but those weren't really viable.

If you go to PVP sure there is more variety there, but not by much.

And if you want to name builds, when we consider viable to be 'able to complete the in game content' it is very different to if you try to call viable "uber atziri" as that is a different type of viable.

And for PoE, while I am not sure about uber atziri, in terms of complete the game there are a huge number of viable builds, far more than your list. And its primarily just that there are many active skills that can be used as a build style, even if you say 'cold shot' and 'lightning arrow' are essentially the same.
"
Real_Wolf wrote:
Didn't play LoD, really didn't like the online play for it. Played a lot of classic though.

And I can gaurentee you that the number of builds in D2 classic, which itself was very popular, is significantly less than in PoE. Those builds I listed there are the endgame builds that people used. You can add in a few oddities such as necro with poison nova, and the fireball sorc, but those weren't really viable.

If you go to PVP sure there is more variety there, but not by much.

And if you want to name builds, when we consider viable to be 'able to complete the in game content' it is very different to if you try to call viable "uber atziri" as that is a different type of viable.

And for PoE, while I am not sure about uber atziri, in terms of complete the game there are a huge number of viable builds, far more than your list. And its primarily just that there are many active skills that can be used as a build style, even if you say 'cold shot' and 'lightning arrow' are essentially the same.




Huge number of viable builds? The vast majority of builds will hit a wall at Cruel Dominus if we're talking about a strictly self found build. Most summoners, casters, and non-leech based characters struggle heavily against him. And let's not even talk about Merciless Dominus who basically is a straight leech gear check.


You're not even listening to logic here. You can't be comparing PoE to D2 Classic builds, because it doesn't make sense to. PoE is a newer game, and should have more viable builds than D2 + Expansion. It doesn't. Not even close. You need to be comparing PoE to Diablo 2 LoD, which made D2 a vastly better online experience for most people.


Again, you're dismissing my primary point here. It doesn't matter if people reach the end game faster if build diversity is truly there (as in builds capable of going through all maps and up to Aztiri/Uber). What will end up happening is people will just level up another character to play with a different playstyle. If that's truly the case, then you nor any other PoE fanboy shouldn't have a problem with GGG speeding up the journey to the 'endgame' because unlike most other games, endgame doesn't revolve around ONE CHARACTER IN AN ARPG.

The only reason to say 'oh we need to have a longer journey to endgame blah blah blah' is because you pretty much know that to be endgame viable, you have to follow certain power paths. Thus you realize, oh hey, people won't reroll a ton of characters because.... yeah there's no build diversity.



AND SINCE YOU OBVIOUSLY CAN'T READ OR SOMETHING, HERE, LET ME PUT THIS IN BOLD WORDS FOR YOU. YOU CANNOT COMPARE D2 CLASSIC TO POE. YOU HAVE TO COMPARE D2 LOD ENDGAME (UBERS/BAAL RUNS/PIT RUNS/ETC.) VERSUS POE'S ENDGAME (UBER AZTIRI/AZTIRI/78 maps) TO HAVE A FAIR COMPARISON. THE AMOUNT OF BUILDS THAT ARE UBER VIABLE ARE LITERALLY ENDLESS, THE AMOUNT OF BUILDS THAT ARE UBER CAPABLE IN POE I CAN LITERALLY COUNT ON 2 HANDS.
Last edited by allbusiness on Sep 2, 2014, 7:06:24 AM
I played a lot of DII:LoD. The game was a doddle. I took a Fire Arrow-only Bow Amazon to the end of Hell difficulty, in hardcore. Almost any build could be viable. My favourite was a two-handed Axe Amazon I got to just short of lvl90. If you were aware of the variant community, you would have known we had hundreds of off-the-wall builds that we could farm Baal with.

Now, I am far less qualified to comment on the difficulty and build variety in PoE, but I will weigh in with what I have experienced. I have six characters in Cruel and one who had just reached Merciless. I have a fair idea of the early and middle stage of the game.

Normal Difficulty is mostly fine, in my opinion. It gradually ramps up the difficulty and introduces new concepts as the player gradually forms the bones of their build. The latter part of Act II need a little tweaking, however, as you will easily be over-levelled (and, therefore, have too-easy a time). Why the heck is the Weaver's Chambers a lower level than the Chamber of Sins when you go there after? Minor quibble, but it could use a little tweaking.

Cruel, on the other hand, is exceedingly dull. I am not enjoying it at all. Act I/Cruel is FAR easier than Act III/Normal, and Act II/Cruel was no more of a challenge. The game should be scaling up, but instead it gets easier. There is something seriously wrong here. Literally the only challenge I had in Cruel difficulty was a Corrupted Blood Rare, and that was because I misunderstood how the mod worked. As it currently stands, Cruel feels like a largely useless tarpit that you have to struggle through to between the main parts of the game.

The lack of interesting drops also made Cruel more dull. In Normal, I was regularly getting better gear, and could often gamble an upgrade with a couple of currency items. By the time you complete normal, however, you will likely only be able to upgrade with extremely good quality rares (eg 2-3 resistances). I have played most games in this genre, and PoE really does have terrible itemisation. To use Sacred 2 as an example, as you entered higher-level zones, lower-level gear gradually stops appearing to ensure you are likely to find an upgrade, but I am finding lvl1 gear at Domunus/Cruel! Sacred 2 also has FAR more useful shops, but that is another story ;)

The combination of exceedingly easy and dull gameplay, along with long periods between upgrades dropping, made Cruel feel completely pointless to me. Perhaps this is where the OP's issue with the levelling process taking too long lies?
Personally, the leveling phase is the most enjoyable for me.
You're also right at some points. Especially, I think the difficulty curve needs to be adjusted a bit ...
I like many kinds of games 😊
"
ElricOfGrans wrote:
Normal Difficulty is mostly fine, in my opinion. It gradually ramps up the difficulty and introduces new concepts as the player gradually forms the bones of their build. The latter part of Act II need a little tweaking, however, as you will easily be over-levelled (and, therefore, have too-easy a time). Why the heck is the Weaver's Chambers a lower level than the Chamber of Sins when you go there after? Minor quibble, but it could use a little tweaking.

Cruel, on the other hand, is exceedingly dull. I am not enjoying it at all. Act I/Cruel is FAR easier than Act III/Normal, and Act II/Cruel was no more of a challenge. The game should be scaling up, but instead it gets easier. There is something seriously wrong here. Literally the only challenge I had in Cruel difficulty was a Corrupted Blood Rare, and that was because I misunderstood how the mod worked. As it currently stands, Cruel feels like a largely useless tarpit that you have to struggle through to between the main parts of the game.

The lack of interesting drops also made Cruel more dull. In Normal, I was regularly getting better gear, and could often gamble an upgrade with a couple of currency items. By the time you complete normal, however, you will likely only be able to upgrade with extremely good quality rares (eg 2-3 resistances). I have played most games in this genre, and PoE really does have terrible itemisation. To use Sacred 2 as an example, as you entered higher-level zones, lower-level gear gradually stops appearing to ensure you are likely to find an upgrade, but I am finding lvl1 gear at Domunus/Cruel! Sacred 2 also has FAR more useful shops, but that is another story ;)

The combination of exceedingly easy and dull gameplay, along with long periods between upgrades dropping, made Cruel feel completely pointless to me. Perhaps this is where the OP's issue with the levelling process taking too long lies?


The reason that Act 1 Cruel is easier, is because of mechanics and gameplay, not stats ...
Just to clarify. Else, I mostly agree with you ...

EDIT:
The level difference with CoS zone and WC zone is game design. I'll explain it ...

Humans mostly read everything Left to Right, meaning that the way towards WC should be the common choice, because it goes left. But the left way looks mostly dark, compared to the lighter more open zone to the right.
Since the zone to the right is lighter, we will be more comfortable with it, than it's darker counterpart to the left. Therefore most people would choose to go eastward, because it makes them feel more comfortable. This is all something that gets processed subconsciously, so very few will notice.
It's just a game design error on GGG's part, especially considering questing ...
I like many kinds of games 😊
Last edited by ArchSecter on Sep 2, 2014, 11:48:46 AM
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NeroNoah wrote:
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Real_Wolf wrote:
The solution the the 'deja vu' is simple. More acts. And guess what they are working on? Omg its more acts.

Its like how we used to have ruthless. It existed to make the games 'length' for levelling closer to what it should be. We had 2 acts and 4 difficulties, 8 acts total to run through. We now have 3 acts and 3 difficulties, for 9 acts to runt hrough.

When we rach 4 acts, they may go to just two difficulties, depending on how things line up, so 8 acts to run through. If not 12 acts does seem like a lot, but would also mean the jump up to merc would be a bit more logical.


But trying to 'shorten' time to endgame is a fools game, because endgame itself is where the developers have not got any actual content, and instead have added 'place holder' things to do while the real content is still being developed. Ala maps used to be lvl 60ish and at act 3 release they changed to lvl 66 because of more areas being available.


Again: acts take time, and they are not the only viable solution to this dilemma in the genre (we have maps in PoE and TL2, they seem more apropiate for end game, and Bounties plus Rifts in D3: ROS). I bet it will take some years before we don't need dificulties.

I agree with you that the leveling process needn't feel like déjà vu, and that there are other viable solutions.

A higher degree of procedural generation (maps or map-like content) requires less work up-front and provides more longevity, relative to a higher degree of fixed content (acts) which require more work up-front and provide less longevity.

It's been said many-a-times, but map-like content would be a very welcomed addition to the leveling process. I'd even go so far as to suggest they could be cheaply available from a vendor (talking alterations, no more than alchs), should a player wish to skip acts and difficulties entirely (besides core quests of course, and upon subsequent play-through a after the first), provided the map-like content is more difficult than the average core game content. The framework is all there already; the amount of work required would be significantly less than even just one act, and the benefits nigh immeasurable by comparison.

Edit: Note: None of this involves shortening the time between a1n and maps. Actually, if appropriately fun and difficult, it should even take longer to reach proper maps.
Devolving Wilds
Land
“T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.”
Last edited by CanHasPants on Sep 2, 2014, 12:26:30 PM
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CanHasPants wrote:

I agree with you that the leveling process needn't feel like déjà vu, and that there are other viable solutions.

A higher degree of procedural generation (maps or map-like content) requires less work up-front and provides more longevity, relative to a higher degree of fixed content (acts) which require more work up-front and provide less longevity.

It's been said many-a-times, but map-like content would be a very welcomed addition to the leveling process. I'd even go so far as to suggest they could be cheaply available from a vendor (talking alterations, no more than alchs), should a player wish to skip acts and difficulties entirely (besides core quests of course, and upon subsequent play-through a after the first), provided the map-like content is more difficult than the average core game content. The framework is all there already; the amount of work required would be significantly less than even just one act, and the benefits nigh immeasurable by comparison.

Edit: Note: None of this involves shortening the time between a1n and maps. Actually, if appropriately fun and difficult, it should even take longer to reach proper maps.


I'd prefer another direction actually; let the maps be the carrot in the stick as they are now (the main reason I keep playing the game now is because I think the map concept is neat!), and have a Adventure mode like structure beyond normal (without rifts). Things like adding invasion mobs actually ruin the maps for some people and the main game for the rest. So people don't have to play the story missions again. The masters and the NPCs in game should be enough infrastructure for that, given that more mission's base types are developed. It would be badass if they note you smashed Dominus (and later Kaom or Kitava?).
Or at least remove the story elements, they are mostly useless beyond the first walkthrough.

We have map like content in the form of corrupted areas; that could be useful too, if they were summonable or something like that beyond normal. Less fragment farming and more searching Vaal Gems or doing master missions inside them.

Actually, I'd like the levelling process is larger than right now, and people are less encouraged to speed run it. (at least is not D3: ROS ladder, where people level up to 70 in like one or two hours)

PS: about the build variety, this games struggles because tries to have build variety and be hardcore at the same time, I wouldn't compare the ubers in D2: LOD and PoE; the problem in fact could be that the bar we should judge build variety is fuzzy.

PS2: I suggested something similar to this before (there is a link to my silly, Final Fantasy based idea in my signature, before masters came).
Add a Forsaken Masters questline
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2297942

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