Restrictions, Rules, Filters, etc.

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caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaps wrote:

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uglyHansWurst wrote:

@caps

Thats bullshit, trolls and idiots will allways get ignored and isolated by the community.

lol

prove this plz?

Easy. Online games where there long before "license agreements" tried to regulate communication between gamers. It worked back then and it would probably work now, too.

Want something more specific? Look at Quake 3 Arena. Comm is sticking together like glue for more than a decade now, despite having tons of super offensive nicknames/cursing players. I cannot count the amounts of "hitlers" "f***yourmoms", etc. this game has but its still (and has always been) straight fun. Because like Ugly said those morons get isolated quickly.

I'm ok with regulating racist or politically extreme content. But cursing? Come on! It's part of everyday life. And it just feels overregulated to me to ban it from games...

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Hartbrot wrote:

I'm ok with regulating racial or politically extreme content. But cursing? Come on! It's part of everyday life. And it just feels overregulated to me to ban it from games...

It's fine to have a rather lenient chat filter. That's not really an issue because cursing in the chat is instantaneous; it comes and goes quickly. In those cases, it's used for a one-time effect, whether it be comedy or hate (which isn't the issue). Not many people take true offence to occasional vulgarities. Also, you can't possibly block all vulgarities with a filter, so an attempt to do so is rather vain. A spam filter (can't post the same message in a certain amount of time) would be sufficient for this type of thing.

What I take issue with is the use of vulgar and extremely explicit character and guild names, or other permanent fixtures. People abuse these for long-lasting attention, and people quite often use them to bring ideals into the game that have no place (racial, religious, etc. views). When I go to check my position on the ladder, I don't want to have to scan through dozens of names like Anal_Seepage or DeadFetus. That just shows those players feel a sense of attention deprivation.

An optional chat filter seems to work quite well - if people know they can swear if they want to but others might just see *****, the freedom is enough for them to not bother swearing much.

However, so far as character names go, I would like to see some basic rules in place. I like to get immersed in a game, that doesn't happen if I see SukMyDik speaking in the general chat.

I see your point Whiteboy. But i think that's more a question of personal taste (regarding obscene names).
F.e. i personally really don't want to browse through the ladder seeing names like "DarkKnight81" or "Killer1337". While not being offensive they are extremly boring and unimaginative. But that's just my personal taste.
And i guess that just a few of the players would be irritated by obscene names or the like for a second or two. Most of the players would probably shrug their shoulders and move on. Just like i do with boring and unimaginative names.

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Hartbrot wrote:

Easy. Online games where there long before "license agreements" tried to regulate communication between gamers. It worked back then and it would probably work now, too.

Want something more specific? Look at Quake 3 Arena. Comm is sticking together like glue for more than a decade now, despite having tons of super offensive nicknames/cursing players. I cannot count the amounts of "hitlers" "f***yourmoms", etc. this game has but its still (and has always been) straight fun. Because like Ugly said those morons get isolated quickly.

Woah slow down how are those guys isolated if you're having trouble counting all of them? :|

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I'm ok with regulating racist or politically extreme content. But cursing? Come on! It's part of everyday life. And it just feels overregulated to me to ban it from games...

I am detecting dissonance in your cognitions. :O

Everyday life is full of racist and politically extreme content, more so if you're a racist. We don't want everyday life, though; we want a game people can play together and not get get mad over. GGG have given themselves the ability to install some minimal level of conduct. I'm not saying that they should install killbots from space for first offenses, but there are legitimate reasons for wanting to remove offensive players as they see fit. For one thing, if obnoxious players drive others away that's hurting their income. Another thing is: who wants to be known as that community with all the griefers?

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caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaps wrote:

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Hartbrot wrote:

Easy. Online games where there long before "license agreements" tried to regulate communication between gamers. It worked back then and it would probably work now, too.

Want something more specific? Look at Quake 3 Arena. Comm is sticking together like glue for more than a decade now, despite having tons of super offensive nicknames/cursing players. I cannot count the amounts of "hitlers" "f***yourmoms", etc. this game has but its still (and has always been) straight fun. Because like Ugly said those morons get isolated quickly.

Woah slow down how are those guys isolated if you're having trouble counting all of them? :|

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I'm ok with regulating racist or politically extreme content. But cursing? Come on! It's part of everyday life. And it just feels overregulated to me to ban it from games...

I am detecting dissonance in your cognitions. :O

Everyday life is full of racist and politically extreme content, more so if you're a racist. We don't want everyday life, though; we want a game people can play together and not get get mad over. GGG have given themselves the ability to install some minimal level of conduct. I'm not saying that they should install killbots from space for first offenses, but there are legitimate reasons for wanting to remove offensive players as they see fit. For one thing, if obnoxious players drive others away that's hurting their income. Another thing is: who wants to be known as that community with all the griefers?

1. They do get isolated by being flamed in chat, by not being invited to cups, by being banned from pickup channels and forums. Need more examples? This has been working quite well for years now. Noone needs "rules of behaviour". Especially in a game designed to appeal more mature customers like PoE does. Community will pretty much handle idiots themselves.

2. Your everyday life is full of racism? Where do you live? in an 80s township in southafrica? Where i live racism clearly is NOT part of everyday life. Plus, be honest man: Does cursing/foul language affect anyone as racism does? I don't think so.
If you want to keep people from being driven away from this game you have to prevent ANY kind of flame. Especially the "noob! noob!" flames which DEFINATELY will be a problem just like in every other online game i know.
So overregulating the way people express themselves will not solve this problem at all.

3. One of the most intolerant communitys is one of the most successful: League of Legends. There is hardly one match played without hardcore flaming going on. So restrictions regarding use of language clearly have no impact on financial success.

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Hartbrot wrote:

1. They do get isolated by being flamed in chat, by not being invited to cups, by being banned from pickup channels and forums. Need more examples? This has been working quite well for years now. Noone needs "rules of behaviour". Especially in a game designed to appeal more mature customers like PoE does. Community will pretty much handle idiots themselves.

So trolling is your solution to remove trolls?

Also, ROFL at you noting that the community controls trolls by banning them. Replace 'community' with 'GGG' and what exactly is the issue here? Obviously these communities have rules they use for determining who to ban and who to ostracize, even if those rules are unwritten (and therefore possibly subject to abuse). What's wrong with stating that you have rules, and how can you suggest nobody needs rules if there exist trolls? Wouldn't "no trolls allowed" count as a rule regarding behavior?

Heck, your examples doesn't seem to acknowledge the difference between multiplayer games run through a single service (eg POE) and those that use many and diverse matchmaking services (eg them shooters with them ircs and forums and whatnots).

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2. Your everyday life is full of racism? Where do you live?

Everywhere. Also, sometimes I use the internet. If you have difficulty finding racist material on the internet...

But my point was more related to:

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Where i live racism clearly is NOT part of everyday life. Plus, be honest man: Does cursing/foul language affect anyone as racism does? I don't think so.

Your experiences with and attitudes towards cursing and racism are not universal.

For one thing, much cursing can be derogatory even if the person using it doesn't intend it that way. E.g., using 'bitch' such as 'that double +damage buffed moss elemental made me its bitch in one hit' might seem inoffensive to the speaker, but the word is loaded with judgements about women and their relative worth. Another example might be 'that's gay'.

Also, where I live, nobody uses bad words. ;|

But yeah, when people curse a lot in chat, they can affect others. This is true for just about any words; it obviously depends on the context. If somebody says they had a crappy day, nobody cares. If somebody says somebody else is a 'noobcrap at game omg no warlords mark U SUK', they intend to affect them even though their words aren't generally considered as offensive as others. So yeah, rules so that GGG can punish or remove the second case (preferably without killing the first guy too) would be just as necessary as rules so they can remove 'darksaredumb' the marauder.

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If you want to keep people from being driven away from this game you have to prevent ANY kind of flame. Especially the "noob! noob!" flames which DEFINATELY will be a problem just like in every other online game i know.
So overregulating the way people express themselves will not solve this problem at all.

Sounds good. Let's get on it and ban people who spam 'noob' in chat. Do we really want people who flame a lot?

But of course overregulating or regulating incorrectly won't help. We'd have to count on GGG moderating sanely. Doesn't mean we don't want moderation.

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3. One of the most intolerant communitys is one of the most successful: League of Legends. There is hardly one match played without hardcore flaming going on. So restrictions regarding use of language clearly have no impact on financial success.

Then why did Riot add the tribunal? The fact that their community sucks and makes games suck (i died twice and you're saying i fed even though you lost two towers in the meantime??) doesn't mean that's a desirable quality in a game. Maybe LoL would be more successful if people were nicer. I know matches where people aren't whining in chat are more fun than those where they are. Isn't it worth it to make the game fun too?

I'm perfectly OK with an optional chat filter.

Honestly, though, these words hold this kind of power and meaning because you guys allow them to.

I#m getting tired of this. It's leading nowhere.
Last thing i'm going to say is that overly strict rules in my view usually lead to an atmosphere of mistrust and false accusations. Im totally against censorship of any kind. Especially when it comes to questions of taste. Like the use of foul language.

Is it even reasonable to expect GGG to moderate this stuff? To hire the manpower to look through game logs and judge disputes? And I'm pretty wary of non-optional automated systems.

I'd like to think that an optional off-the-shelf chat filter and the ignore function would be enough, and the community could do the rest in terms of making sure newbies aren't driven off by crass behavior.