Thoughts on the Design of the Map System

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sidtherat wrote:

i absolutely hate that progress is gated by rng and rng alone. this is not how games (you know, stuff you do for FUN) should be designed - EVER.

As a huge rogue-like/dungeon-crawler fan I disagree. It's fun and it's different every time, I hate linear progression.

PoE's map system RNG is too forgiving after all the buffs and added Carto boxes. That is if you're rolling them decently, hell even pack/magic size is enough now so now you have even more currency to roll or buy gear for.

And your point about 78s is based upon fallacy, and even threw in ad hominem. Stay classy.

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1988288 wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

i absolutely hate that progress is gated by rng and rng alone. this is not how games (you know, stuff you do for FUN) should be designed - EVER.

As a huge rogue-like/dungeon-crawler fan I disagree. It's fun and it's different every time, I hate linear progression.

PoE's map system RNG is too forgiving after all the buffs and added Carto boxes. That is if you're rolling them decently, hell even pack/magic size is enough now so now you have even more currency to roll or buy gear for.

And your point about 78s is based upon fallacy, and even threw in ad hominem. Stay classy.

There is no other "rogue-like" or "dungeon-crawler", where ACCESS to content is gated by RNG.

Carto boxes are just a temporary league issue, and i dont think they'll stay (at least, not with such high chances to spawn). Furthermore, carto boxes implement another layer of RNG and make map affixes (besides "experience-boosters" like Hordes) even more worthless. Why bother about higher chance to drop a map in the map, when you get most of your maps from boxes? It's better to save currency to roll those boxes properly instead, and run maps just to "check" for boxes and take easy experience. It's really a dick design.

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1988288 wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

i absolutely hate that progress is gated by rng and rng alone. this is not how games (you know, stuff you do for FUN) should be designed - EVER.

As a huge rogue-like/dungeon-crawler fan I disagree. It's fun and it's different every time, I hate linear progression.

I didn't get into rogue-likes until after I discovered them through PoE, but nonetheless I very much understand your sentiment! The elements of PoE that draw from rogue-like inspiration (particularly, as I'm often wont to say, the principle of resource scarcity overcoming random encounters) are what make the game so goddamn amazing in my opinion

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PoE's map system RNG is too forgiving after all the buffs and added Carto boxes. That is if you're rolling them decently, hell even pack/magic size is enough now so now you have even more currency to roll or buy gear for.

However, this seems to contradict your previous sentiment. Less forgiving "map RNG" would presumable lead to a more confined scope of variety in encounters. Transferring some of the "accessibility RNG" to the scope of "encounter RNG" (think Endless Ledge) is very much in-line with the RL-philosophy; what you appear to be saying very much is not.

Forgive me if I am misinterpreting you.

In re: Carto boxes: Connectivity issues lead me to quit PoE until I can afford a better PC and home network, and halted my progress through Ambush before I could experience them. Please explain what exactly is so bad about them?

My initial impression of (any) stronbox was that it would, once I reached mapping level, be quite a positive experience given the additional layer of modifiers over top of internal pack rarity and external map modifiers. It seemed as though GGG had nearly struck the risk vs reward nail on the head with their implementation. Is it just that these (Carto's) in particular were too rewarding?

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

There is no other "rogue-like" or "dungeon-crawler", where ACCESS to content is gated by RNG.

Much of a content can be gated by drops you receive, what kind of monsters you encounter, what kind of events you get, do you get lucky with finding a shop with good loot in it, spells/spell-books, etc..etc.
This thing varies from game to game though. I don't know what kind of rogue-likes/dungeon-crawlers you've played, but I've encountered plenty enough where RNG will either screw or save you.
That's the fun thing - adapting and being able to adapt to worst situations.

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Carto boxes are just a temporary league issue, and i dont think they'll stay (at least, not with such high chances to spawn).

Boxes will be added to the main-game, yet rebalanced like what happened with Rogue-exiles. Invaders are not for stay.

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Furthermore, carto boxes implement another layer of RNG and make map affixes (besides "experience-boosters" like Hordes) even more worthless.

Player can influence what the box will be more likely to drop. This is exact opposite of RNG, but feel free to call it RNG just because it is not 100% deterministic.

Getting same reward over and over again is dull.

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Why bother about higher chance to drop a map in the map, when you get most of your maps from boxes? It's better to save currency to roll those boxes properly instead, and run maps just to "check" for boxes and take easy experience. It's really a dick design.

It is quite foolish to count on striking the lottery. Long term healthy decisions pay off, lottery does not.



@CanHasPants, I'm not saying that Cartographer boxes are bad. They're opposite of RNG (yet people will argue past that - their spawn is RNG, what they drop is RNG.. you know, the usual..).

Random double post, zz.

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1988288 wrote:

@CanHasPants, I'm not saying that Cartographer boxes are bad. They're opposite of RNG (yet people will argue past that - their spawn is RNG, what they drop is RNG.. you know, the usual..).

How are they the opposite of RNG, if they spawn once every leap year. I haven't seen any cartographer past one in a lvl 72 map, while leveling to 90.

As far as I'm concerned, cartographer boxes are exactly the same as hitting jackpot on map seed, you know, the one instance that showers you with maps regardless of map Q, once every leap year.

And their spawn rate will be nerfed further.

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tinko92 wrote:

I care about playing challenging content as well as progressing efficiently, that's what's fun to me, it's subjective.
And after some time, maps aren't interesting nor fun anymore. Please, do not enforce your own opinions as facts.

A game is usually meant to be fun "playing" it.
In this genre: using skills, slaying monsters and looting them, level up, repeat...
This fun can only last so long, and you will reach a limit: you are geared so well that upgrades will drop very rarely and your level progression kind of stops.

GGG has given players two things, both are optional:
a) you can level way higher than the expected level after the third difficulty is done. As usual, each level will take exponentially more xp than the last.
b) you can try maps, and loot them for better gear and/or more maps.
I repeat, this is optional, additional content.

But as there is a slight, even though very unlikely possibility to reach 100 and to get endless high level maps, players have shifted their expectations.
No longer is the game "A1N to A3M", instead that stuff gets rushed to play maps, that's "the real game" now, and the player feels he deserves to get to 100 and (to get there faster) he deserves to get his level 78 content.

The game itself does everything to prove the player wrong, as getting to 100 takes forever and high level content is gated behind trade and RNG in such a way that one has a pretty hard time getting and staying there (even with carto boxes).
There's also no "level appropriate content" for high level characters, it stops at 78. Another hint that this is not meant to be done.

Now you can say things like: "I want my challenging high level content, as my level 92 marauder steamrolls everything and I don't get XP from lower maps".

Or you accept that it's not meant to be like this.
Play your maps, and once you reach the wall of "there's no more efficient progression", you reroll with a new character. Or play another game.

I see the whole "getting to level 100" as a masochistic approach to prolong playing time. The game doesn't want you to do it, all the odds are stacked against you, why would you even try? And your character doesn't even get that much stronger anymore, all your gems are 20/20, your gear is probably near perfect, what are the few additional skillpoints going to do?
(You did it at least once iirc, I would never even think about it)

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A reward is a reward, again I imply on the definition of the same word. Or you find luck being the same as a reward, not going further into that.

I was obviously not talking luck.

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By the way, saying that RNG is "fairer" than difficulty... I'm fairly certain I'm discussing this RNG-fest system with a gambler, which means it's pointless.

In this game you gamble all your items, you gamble for your skills and their support gems, you gamble for the content, you gamble for which monsters or difficulty mods spawn in your content, ...
The only thing not completly random is A1N to A3M and your skill tree.

It's kind of useless to discuss with someone who doesn't want to gamble.
If you don't like it, why do you even waste your time here?

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Peterlerock wrote:

A game is usually meant to be fun "playing" it.
In this genre: using skills, slaying monsters and looting them, level up, repeat...
This fun can only last so long, and you will reach a limit: you are geared so well that upgrades will drop very rarely and your level progression kind of stops.

GGG has given players two things, both are optional:
a) you can level way higher than the expected level after the third difficulty is done. As usual, each level will take exponentially more xp than the last.
b) you can try maps, and loot them for better gear and/or more maps.
I repeat, this is optional, additional content.

But as there is a slight, even though very unlikely possibility to reach 100 and to get endless high level maps, players have shifted their expectations.
No longer is the game "A1N to A3M", instead that stuff gets rushed to play maps, that's "the real game" now, and the player feels he deserves to get to 100 and (to get there faster) he deserves to get his level 78 content.

The game itself does everything to prove the player wrong, as getting to 100 takes forever and high level content is gated behind trade and RNG in such a way that one has a pretty hard time getting and staying there (even with carto boxes).

Now you can say things like: "I want my challenging high level content, as my level 92 marauder steamrolls everything and I don't get XP from lower maps".

Or you accept that it's not meant to be like this.
Play your maps, and once you reach the wall of "there's no more efficient progression", you reroll with a new character. Or play another game.

I see the whole "getting to level 100" as a masochistic pproach to prolong playing time. The game doesn't want you to do it, all the odds are stacked against you, why would you even try?
(You did it at least once iirc, I would never even think about it)

That's right, and in PoE you don't get to progress (level up) if you're unlucky or short of $$$.

That is absolutely not true. Maps are not an optional, bonus content, they are a "legit" endgame in PoE.
It's the content where players spend a huge majority of their playtime.
Atziri is an optional, bonus content.

That part of players feeling that they deserve to play a content can only come from PoE community member.
Of course I fucking deserve to play the hardest and the most rewarding content since my character is a badass. And of course I deserve a lvl 100 if I invest enough time.

I know it's not meant for us players to play the hardest possible content that we can handle, it's really pointless from you to point that out.

When I reach that wall, I complain about it, it's an artificial gameplay prolongation through RNG-fest which serves as one of the pillars of the economy.

Again, I am aware that the game does not want players to play harder content, it does not reward players for doing it, and that is my point here. Plus, your little education sessions are ridiculous.
The road to 100 can be done free of RNG-fest bullshit, like it's done in every single game except PoE.

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I was obviously not talking luck.

What then? What rewards?

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In this game you gamble all your items, you gamble for your skills and their support gems, you gamble for the content, you gamble for which monsters or difficulty mods spawn in your content, ...
The only thing not completly random is A1N to A3M and your skill tree.

It's kind of useless to discuss with someone who doesn't want to gamble.
If you don't like it, why do you even waste your time here?

Isn't that funny? Can you read that again?
Gambling is everywhere, even in the access to the content.

I don't like to gamble, I like to play ARPG's.
I obviously don't like this amount of gambling, and do I even need to explain why am I wasting my time here?

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tinko92 wrote:

What then? What rewards?

What I find "rewarding" in this game:

Testing a build I came up with on my own, playing it as soon as possible (starting Lvl 2 to 31, depending on main skill), so that I actually "see it grow" (I never understood the idea of levelling builds like "play Searing Bond up to Level 75"), trying to make it work, and if it works, trying to find the limits.

Rolling crazy maps and checking if I can do them (minus max resist extra lightning damage faster monster stuff), and if I can, I feel rewarded.

The rare times when RNG is on my side (5-6 linking, exalted drops, rares/uniques that actually fit your build).

Sometimes I still enjoy the mindless killing of hordes of monsters.

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What I don't find "rewarding":

Levelling past 90, so I don't. I take a break and/or reroll.

Attempts on "Serious crafting": yeah, sure. Sounds like a great idea to even try it.

Playing the same map over and over again. I actually decide not to level up any more because I see no point in playing 10+ Courtyards one after another.

Atziri. The moment I read how it's supposed to be done (farming some uninteresting shit forever to get the midnight part and seeing more loading screens than monsters), I knew I'm not too interested in this expansion.

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I guess we are having the same issues with the game, but the difference is: you want it to be accessible and fitting your needs, while I on the other hand adapt my goals. If it's most likely not going to work, why should I bother trying? How realistic is my approach, and how realistic is it that they will change the game so I get what I want?

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I don't like to gamble, I like to play ARPG's.

I still have to find an ARPG where the most important part (Gear) isn't pure RNG.

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Peterlerock wrote:

I still have to find an ARPG where the most important part (Gear) isn't pure RNG.

Try PoE, you are expected just pick your gear from a catalogue, ready made, tailored stats.

There's RNG, but you are supposed to simply circumvent it, the RNG is never meant to have anything to do with gearing.