Thoughts on the Design of the Map System

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I'm a big believer in the core concept of the map system.

I feel your vision about a proper map system is pretty solid. I agree on your arguments, though your implementation still has some flaws (although less than PoE system).

The first major flaw there is that bonus quantity of maps dropped provided by various affixes is ADDITIVE, thus players still wont be encouraged to spend currency to get 6-affix maps. I think, that at least drop chance of maps inside maps should be multiplicative gain from all affixes, thus improving to a much higher degree with 5-th and 6-th affix added (so encouraging players to run these maps due to much higher improvement to map sustainability).

The second flaw is some affixes you suggested. I believe, that any affixes, that increase number of rare/magic mobs, shouldnt be there. Why dont add affixes, that affect ONLY power of those mobs (hp, damage, bonuses from their added affixes, etc). I dont think we need to encourage AoE playstyle even more...

Third flaw - certain affixes. Adding additional strongboxes and other lootable objects (exiles, bosses, vessels) should be threated very carefully too. I personally think we dont need those affixes first. Perhaps, later, when really working system would implemented.
Also, these affixes could increase experience gained, which may give them unfair advantage over other affixes
Adding fire and maximum fire resistance to mobs will restrict a burning build too much. However, this is probably a burning build's issue.
Adding around 6k armour/evasion is also a bad and unfair idea. 30% physical resistance works much better there.

Fourth flaw - you didnt adressed an issue, that bosses provide a negligible contribute to loot and experience gained in a map. Loot and experience, provided by map boss, should be drastically increased (compared to those provided by other mobs in map), so skipping a boss will have a really detrimental effect on your map sustainability, loot and experience gain. Some (easy) bosses should become much tougher, to match their "boss" status.

Fifth flaw - reflect. I dont think it's a healthy affix at all, as it FORCES player to build around it. However, i believe the whole instant leech/reflect mechanics should be revised.

I also see no reasons to equalize all map mods in item quantity provided. I have nothing against one mod being twice as hard as another, when first is rewarded with item quantity accordingly. The problem of PoE is that difficult affixes arent rewarded properly.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

You finish the game with merciless dominus, then you run some maps.
You'll probably get to 75 maps without much of an issue, then you can run some 76 maps, a couple of 77s, and on rare occasions, you'll even run a 78 map, while progressing to level 85-90.
If this is fine to you, then the map system is actually very rewarding, diverse, balanced and interesting.

No, that doesn't mean it's a rewarding system.
Balanced? How, why and where?

MortalKombat did a fairly decent review in the map system. Especially regarding the bosses.

Risk/reward needs to exist in order for the map system to actually be rewarding. Being lucky =/= getting rewarded.
Map system being interesting however... depends if you're a gambler, than the current one is interesting of course.

"

tinko92 wrote:

"

Peterlerock wrote:

You finish the game with merciless dominus, then you run some maps.
You'll probably get to 75 maps without much of an issue, then you can run some 76 maps, a couple of 77s, and on rare occasions, you'll even run a 78 map, while progressing to level 85-90.
If this is fine to you, then the map system is actually very rewarding, diverse, balanced and interesting.

No, that doesn't mean it's a rewarding system.

Why not? You got something to do (play maps), and to sustain a somewhat diverse map pool (let's say between 70 and 78) isn't really an issue. So you can play a lot of different maps with a lot of different bosses and difficulty affixes, which is more than most ARPGs have to offer for lategame.

"

Balanced? How, why and where?

You get maps, with lower maps being more common than higher maps. That's some kind of "balance".
What makes you think you deserve high level maps in the first place?

"

Map system being interesting however... depends if you're a gambler, than the current one is interesting of course.

I feel you are reducing the whole "map system" to "sustain high level maps".
If you don't care too much about sustaining a high level map pool, and just want to play all kind of maps just because playing maps is fun, and if you don't care about getting higher than level 85-90... I don't see any issues.
Again: a lot of different maps with a lot of different bosses and difficulty affixes, which is more than most ARPGs have to offer for lategame.
I consider this "interesting".
At least compared to "farm the same 3 bosses 6000 times in the exact same way", which is what is called "lategame" in other ARPGs.

The issue you have is:
A "reward" for you is probably getting a higher or same level map, so you can keep on levelling. Or high value items, or whatever.
But a "reward" can also be "let's see if I can beat this boss with this difficulty mod... cool, I did it!".

"

Peterlerock wrote:

But a "reward" can also be "let's see if I can beat this boss with this difficulty mod... cool, I did it!".

Some people, sadly enough, recognize only material reward.

I always thought linking maps would be cool for increased drop rates. I.e you have the same number of re spawn portals as 1 map but u put 4 maps in the device and at the end of each map is a portal to the next.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

I feel you are reducing the whole "map system" to "sustain high level maps".

Well, high level maps should be more difficult (and rewarding), than lower-level ones. When running high-level maps, you should ask yourself "am i tough enough to run those maps", and not "do i have enough currency to sustain those maps".

Highest-level maps shouldnt be as easy as they are (easpecially trash mobs). Neither should they should be unsustainable. My whole idea is that rewarding endgame content should be gated behind difficulty, and not behind grinding/luck/currency.

But "difficulty" can only do so much...
Mr. Overgeared will not feel the slightest bit of "difficulty" while facetanking level 78 Double Dominus, but Mr. Selffound will probably struggle even against white level 74 voidbearers.

Only your gear and playstyle (ranged/melee/caster/..., different gems, weapon types,...) decide what is difficult and what isn't, so you cannot gate content behind difficulty.

How would the forum react if they introduced maps that can only be beaten by low-life spectral throwers?
(which they kind of did with uber atziri, but she's also gated behind RNG, not only difficulty)

RNG is actually fairer than "difficulty" as it limits both the over- and undergeared players. ;)
(I put the word in "..." as there can only be so much difficulty in an ARPG, it usually only comes down to about 60% gear check, 20% skill/passive choices, 10% gameplay experience and 10% reaction time)

"

Peterlerock wrote:

But "difficulty" can only do so much...
Mr. Overgeared will not feel the slightest bit of "difficulty" while facetanking level 78 Double Dominus, but Mr. Selffound will probably struggle even against white level 74 voidbearers.

Only your gear and playstyle (ranged/melee/caster/..., different gems, weapon types,...) decide what is difficult and what isn't, so you cannot gate content behind difficulty.

How would the forum react if they introduced maps that can only be beaten by low-life spectral throwers?
(which they kind of did with uber atziri, but she's also gated behind RNG, not only difficulty)

RNG is actually fairer than "difficulty" as it limits both the over- and undergeared players. ;)
(I put the word in "..." as there can only be so much difficulty in an ARPG, it usually only comes down to about 60% gear check, 20% skill/passive choices, 10% gameplay experience and 10% reaction time)

Yeah, i agree, there is an issue with game balance overall. Low-life dagger ST is too powerful, as we all know, while some life-based ice nova self-caster will struggle with every mob even in BIS gear...

But you're wrong, RNG is NOT fairer than difficulty. Difficulty is more fair. If endgame constent isnt gated behind difficulty, there is no real incentive to gear up. Why drive your character's build, gear, etc to extreme, when even mediocre setup allows you to grind any content?

However, the game itself should be more balanced and dont allow to skyrocket DPS and defence (simultaneously, BTW). The major balance issue between different builds isnt the reason to gate content behind RNG.

And if PoE is trade-based ARPG, then mr. Selffound just handicaps himself. If you want PoE to be selffound game, that's completely another topic. I have nothing against healthy trade, when you trade some items you dont need in order to get items you need. Problem with PoE is that there's too many items nobody dont need, and too few items everyone needs.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

Why not? You got something to do (play maps), and to sustain a somewhat diverse map pool (let's say between 70 and 78) isn't really an issue. So you can play a lot of different maps with a lot of different bosses and difficulty affixes, which is more than most ARPGs have to offer for lategame.

Because, look up the definition of the word "reward".
I can only play all those maps if:
1. I'm lucky
2. I pay
It's true, it is more because of the map mods (not levels), but it all falls behind because of RNG, an artificial prolongation of the game lifespawn which plays its part in the economy.

"

You get maps, with lower maps being more common than higher maps. That's some kind of "balance".
What makes you think you deserve high level maps in the first place?

I'd call that imbalance, rather than balance.
What makes me think that? Lets see:
1. I can handle them
2. I can access leveling content without having to be lucky or pay for it in every other ARPG

What makes you think I do not deserve to play them?

"

I feel you are reducing the whole "map system" to "sustain high level maps".
If you don't care too much about sustaining a high level map pool, and just want to play all kind of maps just because playing maps is fun, and if you don't care about getting higher than level 85-90... I don't see any issues.
Again: a lot of different maps with a lot of different bosses and difficulty affixes, which is more than most ARPGs have to offer for lategame.
I consider this "interesting".
At least compared to "farm the same 3 bosses 6000 times in the exact same way", which is what is called "lategame" in other ARPGs.

The issue you have is:
A "reward" for you is probably getting a higher or same level map, so you can keep on levelling. Or high value items, or whatever.
But a "reward" can also be "let's see if I can beat this boss with this difficulty mod... cool, I did it!".

No I do not, you're pulling stuff out of the context.
I care about playing challenging content as well as progressing efficiently, that's what's fun to me, it's subjective.
And after some time, maps aren't interesting nor fun anymore. Please, do not enforce your own opinions as facts.

Farming the same 3 bosses is just the same as doing the top lvl maps, and frankly, not even the random terrain generation is a big bonus, take a look at the Courtyard and Palace layout.
Like I've said, it's all about the map mods.

A reward is a reward, again I imply on the definition of the same word. Or you find luck being the same as a reward, not going further into that.

Please, do not tell me of feeling rewarded after beating some boss with certain difficulty mod(s).
I've been there, and it sucks, because I had to flip items to pay that shit off, as well as the whole leveling process, that's how rewarding the map system is. It's nowhere near it, it's a RNG-fest.
I cannot feel rewarded if I lost something, or the loss of something has a lot bigger impact than something I've won.


By the way, saying that RNG is "fairer" than difficulty... I'm fairly certain I'm discussing this RNG-fest system with a gambler, which means it's pointless.
Bye.

i know that this is about poe' end game and that many here think d3 is some kind of abomination but in upcoming patch D3 is finally getting an interesting end game system (progressively more difficult levels with time trial - it can be even called competetive [there are some kind of ladders implemented]). while there is slight rng 'gate' (currently around 50% in their test realm) it is by no means elusive. any casual will get a chance of running it if not on the first try then on the second.

while i think maps are ok and provide 'varying' and 'unpredictable' level of challenge (Due to mods that can have pretty shocking multiplicative effect) i absolutely hate that progress is gated by rng and rng alone. this is not how games (you know, stuff you do for FUN) should be designed - EVER.

and one CANNOT progress (As in - level up to 100) without maps and without luck the only way to do these 78's is to a) leech from maps of others (or invade trade parties, fun&profit) b) trade instead of playing the game. this is dumb system for nolifers and only nolifers can defend it as they do not value their 'time' resource

risk vs reward of some map bosses is.. well.. designed by 8yo