Isn't Armor (Determination) plus Evasion (Grace) better than Iron Reflexes?

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jbmcarth wrote:

Acrobatics + block + lightning coil + lvl 1 cwdt enduring cry/enfeeble + lvl 12 cwdt increased duration immortal call. If your gems are blue, sub in MoM or cloak of defiance.

armor does nothing against spells, while spell block and dodge are fairly straightforward to work into a melee build. armor is penalized by acrobatics, while evasion (with all its flaws) still works at 100%.

I mainly don't like unwavering stance because it's in the ass end of the passive tree. Few builds can grab it without spending 4+ points. Unless you absolutely need that 5% less mana resesrved node, it's just such a waste to go there.

you know that the higher your evasion/block/dodge is the lower the proc on CwDT? thats the negative feedback loop on phys mitigation with cwdt-casted EC+IC

the better you are at evading damage, the less you proc cwdt and the less you have that extra phys protection

on my acro+eva+block char i removed CwDT from setup just because it did not proc frequently enough to be reliable

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requiner wrote:

I would say it depends on the build, block change, etc.

Base lvl 20 grace gives 2016. Add in some aura passives and inner force and your around 3850 (2016 * 1.91)

With one of my characters they have 216 % increased armor and 178% increased evasion (+40% from dexterity bonus)

Base armor = 1100
Base Evasion = 100
Determination is lvl 20 with aura passives so (0.51 * 1.91 = 97% armor increase)

No Iron reflexes

Total armor = 1100 * (1 + 2.16) * 1.97 = 6847 armor
Total Evasion = (100 + 3850) * (1 + 1.78 + 0.4) = 12561 evasion

Iron reflexes
Total armor = (1100 + 100 + 3850) * ( 1 + 2.16 + 1.78) * 1.97 = 49145 armor

You sure about this calculation?

"( 1 + 2.16 + 1.78)"

This part seems to be off for me.

I'd have calculated it like this:

[1100 * (1 + 2.16) + 3950 * (1 + 1.78)] * 1.97

Evasion is converted into armor, but that doesn't mean your %Evasion gets applied to your local armor rolls.

This would lead to ~29000 armor, not 49000.

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sidtherat wrote:

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jbmcarth wrote:

Acrobatics + block + lightning coil + lvl 1 cwdt enduring cry/enfeeble + lvl 12 cwdt increased duration immortal call. If your gems are blue, sub in MoM or cloak of defiance.

armor does nothing against spells, while spell block and dodge are fairly straightforward to work into a melee build. armor is penalized by acrobatics, while evasion (with all its flaws) still works at 100%.

I mainly don't like unwavering stance because it's in the ass end of the passive tree. Few builds can grab it without spending 4+ points. Unless you absolutely need that 5% less mana resesrved node, it's just such a waste to go there.

you know that the higher your evasion/block/dodge is the lower the proc on CwDT? thats the negative feedback loop on phys mitigation with cwdt-casted EC+IC

the better you are at evading damage, the less you proc cwdt and the less you have that extra phys protection

on my acro+eva+block char i removed CwDT from setup just because it did not proc frequently enough to be reliable

I'm aware. My build is still a work in progress and I haven't grabbed enough block nodes yet to really feel the full impact. I can't at all think of what else I would use those sockets for, though, and an immediate response after I take the occasional hit seems like the perfect idea.



These are my two CWDT setups atm (the sword was from lvling in the 40s, I know its dps is quite low =P). I suppose I could keep one for CWDT curse and link another one to a supported vaal summon skelly that I click manually... Idk, we'll see when I get higher block.

using almost all aura nodes , es/ir/grace/determination makes for an incredibly tanky character , especially with some es regen or leech on top.

in most other situations i would probably do eva/armour , or one of the 2

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Peterlerock wrote:

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requiner wrote:

I would say it depends on the build, block change, etc.

Base lvl 20 grace gives 2016. Add in some aura passives and inner force and your around 3850 (2016 * 1.91)

With one of my characters they have 216 % increased armor and 178% increased evasion (+40% from dexterity bonus)

Base armor = 1100
Base Evasion = 100
Determination is lvl 20 with aura passives so (0.51 * 1.91 = 97% armor increase)

No Iron reflexes

Total armor = 1100 * (1 + 2.16) * 1.97 = 6847 armor
Total Evasion = (100 + 3850) * (1 + 1.78 + 0.4) = 12561 evasion

Iron reflexes
Total armor = (1100 + 100 + 3850) * ( 1 + 2.16 + 1.78) * 1.97 = 49145 armor

You sure about this calculation?

"( 1 + 2.16 + 1.78)"

This part seems to be off for me.

I'd have calculated it like this:

[1100 * (1 + 2.16) + 3950 * (1 + 1.78)] * 1.97

Evasion is converted into armor, but that doesn't mean your %Evasion gets applied to your local armor rolls.

This would lead to ~29000 armor, not 49000.

Evasion and Armor become the same thing stat wise. So all increased are additive and all numbers (base evasion and armor) are added before an bonuses are applied.

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requiner wrote:

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Peterlerock wrote:

"

requiner wrote:

I would say it depends on the build, block change, etc.

Base lvl 20 grace gives 2016. Add in some aura passives and inner force and your around 3850 (2016 * 1.91)

With one of my characters they have 216 % increased armor and 178% increased evasion (+40% from dexterity bonus)

Base armor = 1100
Base Evasion = 100
Determination is lvl 20 with aura passives so (0.51 * 1.91 = 97% armor increase)

No Iron reflexes

Total armor = 1100 * (1 + 2.16) * 1.97 = 6847 armor
Total Evasion = (100 + 3850) * (1 + 1.78 + 0.4) = 12561 evasion

Iron reflexes
Total armor = (1100 + 100 + 3850) * ( 1 + 2.16 + 1.78) * 1.97 = 49145 armor

You sure about this calculation?

"( 1 + 2.16 + 1.78)"

This part seems to be off for me.

I'd have calculated it like this:

[1100 * (1 + 2.16) + 3950 * (1 + 1.78)] * 1.97

Evasion is converted into armor, but that doesn't mean your %Evasion gets applied to your local armor rolls.

This would lead to ~29000 armor, not 49000.

Evasion and Armor become the same thing stat wise. So all increased are additive and all numbers (base evasion and armor) are added before an bonuses are applied.

You are so dead wrong on this one. Firsly, Dex bonus does give a thing for armor ( pls read IR description more carefully ).

Secondly, the bold part is wrong. We need to know exactly your 1) %increase armor armor, 2) %increase armor and evasion only (i.e Leather and Steel type node ) , 3) %increase evasion only.

Now 3) will only apply on the evasion part, which then convert into armor and not on the original armor part. The 2) will not double-dip, that means if you have 10% of 2), and 500 armor and 500 evasion, you will get 1100 armor when taking IR. Only 1) function same as 2), and will apply to both evasion and armor when taking IR

Also 100% increase means basevalue x 2 and not 1 ....

A lot of opinions in this thread. The long explanation is all numbers and lots of craziness.

The shorter version goes something like this: Evasion is a diminishing returns system, so the first few thousand rating points are worth a lot and the rest are worth much less.

Armor+endurance (I hope you have at LEAST 5 charges if you're using determination!) makes your armor rating an increasing returns system, if you <I>hold content static and change your character's stats</I>

So yes, that first 3,000 points of evasion is worth a TON all the time no matter who you are. But what it loses you to keep evasion rating, by cutting off the top of those increasing gains from armor, might be pretty substantial.

Basically, it's situational. You're comparing apples to oranges too. Evasion can avoid elemental damage, armor can't. How can you make a static value judgment that's correct in all situations?

You can't declare one better than the other. Try them both, use the one that works better for you.

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If you Aren't reaching for 70%+ reduction and 6 endurance charges, armor is much more like a linear gains system (again, holding content static and changing your armor rating). In which case, since evasion is still a diminishing returns system, having some chunk of evasion rating and then stacking armor as high as you can after that is probably an okay choice.

there is also issue of flasks

in theory all gear you wear between fights - besides movement speed boots - is useless. it is needed only DURING a fight

epitome of this are 'flasks' that provide armor/evasion on demand allowing character wearing less than 1k armor have perma-granited AR of 15k+ or more. even non-crit builds can manage enough flasks to last trough all fights that demand them

as long as granites of iron skin can take player with 300 AR to 12k AR without much investment the whole ev/ar discussion looks strange

granites of iron skin are just as broken as surgeons diamond flasks.. but this is ofc unpopular theory because pretty much everyone including me uses them

Evasion just doesnt work vs some of the most dangerous things in the game. A lot of these new corrupted and invasion bosses do attacks and spells which bypass evasion. So it seems even more of a useless stat to me.

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

Evasion just doesnt work vs some of the most dangerous things in the game. A lot of these new corrupted and invasion bosses do attacks and spells which bypass evasion. So it seems even more of a useless stat to me.

You did read the first post, right?

It is not about "Evasion or Armor", it is about "Evasion+Armor or IR"?