Leech is mandatory. No other form of regen can rival it.

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Mivo wrote:

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syrioforel wrote:

Life leech also forces the game into a position where difficulty is introduced through one-shotting mechanics.

There's no inherit connection between the two, though. You do have to keep doing damage in order to survive, but leech doesn't "force" a game design where you can be one shot. Difficulty can be increased by higher mob damage that requires the player to get more leech or more damage, as well. An argument could be made that perhaps leech scales too well with damage, but how much you can leech per second is already limited, so I think things are fine the way they are.

i think you a wrong here
leech and high regen (getting max hp/es in less than 10 secs) limits the chances to kill players
creating the threat of dieing is a very important (imo) part of games like poe
the only way to kill some of the more tankier builds are indeed "oneshots" or high burst phases (kinda like voidbears just on a higher "level")


the problem is
the only way (i know atleast) to not use those hight burst/one shots would be "high" limitations on regaining health in any way (regen/flasks/ll/loh) but removing those would slow the game down and thats something we dont want either

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1337fun wrote:

summoner, dual totem, traps

/thread

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ciel289 wrote:

"

Mivo wrote:

"

syrioforel wrote:

Life leech also forces the game into a position where difficulty is introduced through one-shotting mechanics.

There's no inherit connection between the two, though. You do have to keep doing damage in order to survive, but leech doesn't "force" a game design where you can be one shot. Difficulty can be increased by higher mob damage that requires the player to get more leech or more damage, as well. An argument could be made that perhaps leech scales too well with damage, but how much you can leech per second is already limited, so I think things are fine the way they are.

i think you a wrong here
leech and high regen (getting max hp/es in less than 10 secs) limits the chances to kill players
creating the threat of dieing is a very important (imo) part of games like poe
the only way to kill some of the more tankier builds are indeed "oneshots" or high burst phases (kinda like voidbears just on a higher "level")

Yes, this is my point.

My CI crit dagger shadow has Zealot Oath.
I regen about 1400ES perseconds.
I can survive with only regen no prob.
But I use life leech too.

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dspair wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

Have you watched it? Applies beautifully to you. A debate is about giving constructive feedback and weighing it against all options. Congratulations on offering nothing in reply.

"I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

All the forms of healing have this place, it's simply that Life Leech scales better in the end-game than any other form of regen. It's been like this for other games, and so long as the mechanics work as they do it will continue to be so.

Life regen is a flat amount. Potion heals are flat amounts. Life on Hit is, you guessed it, a flat amount. There are a few skills and passives that allow some of these to scale with your health but health tends not to scale nearly as effectively as damage.

If I had 4,000 health and 5% of that was added to my life regen I would have 200 life regen, even if we could get as high as 10 or 20% it'd still only go up to 400 and 800, respectively.

Compare this to Life Leech which is based on damage, a value that will far exceed that of the average players health pool. If you deal 10,000 dps with 5% Life Leech you will get 500 of that back as health each second. If you get 40,000 (which is extremely possible) you'll get 2,000 life back.

Where Life Leech fails is that you must be in combat to benefit from it at all. Potions and life regen works at any time, meaning you can heal passively whilst backing away from enemies. It's also useful for negating negative effects like Chaos damage on Blood Rage, for example.

All of the sources of health regen are useful, it's simply that Life Leech scales better in the long-term and for long bouts of combat people will prefer it over others. I don't think that's a bad thing personally, for I don't think Life Leech makes other health regen redundant at all.

Just liferegen is fine once you reached a certain point of life/survivability.

Lifeleech wont save you from getting 1shotted, this is the most common way to die, even for the super hardcore ultra tanky progamer streamer builds with koams and what not.
A strange combination of certain mapmods + getting critted = thats it, lifeleech would not have saved you. So dont think its THAT important.


I play completly without lifeleech and it works fine, wouldnt really work with ea anyway.

Every serious build needs some life leech. Some cheesy or silly softcore builds don't, that's an exception.

And when you plan your build, do you think: "Hmm, I'll have to get 5% Life Regen for 50 points" or "I'll get 5% Life Leech on some item or just use LL gem"?

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Toki213 wrote:

I play completly without lifeleech and it works fine, wouldnt really work with ea anyway.

It can work with EA. It even works with Detonate Dead.
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/648651

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MrTastix wrote:

Compare this to Life Leech which is based on damage, a value that will far exceed that of the average players health pool. If you deal 10,000 dps with 5% Life Leech you will get 500 of that back as health each second. If you get 40,000 (which is extremely possible) you'll get 2,000 life back.

My last EKer had 6k life and 5k DPS. For example if I do damage to 10 targets with 8% life leech gem, it'd be 4k life/sec, but we have 20% life/sec cap iirc, so 1.2k life/sec.
Just some math.

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MrTastix wrote:

"

dspair wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

Have you watched it? Applies beautifully to you. A debate is about giving constructive feedback and weighing it against all options. Congratulations on offering nothing in reply.

"I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

*Unsheats katana*

To me life leech on its own is fine;

Its that the game is balanced around the idea you will have life leech, some regen and will be spamming pots to heal yourself. And then tries to make the game hard even for those high regen builds.

Needless to say that not using leech will get you killed at some point, and to most cases fairly often.

I have a idea on how to work the regen mechanics and fix leech dominance over the other forms of leech but didnt want to get this thread moved to suggestions forum at first, because i think this is a important topic to discuss.

So uhm lets start with some light math :D

assume 4.5k hp, 5% life regen, and white superior life sanctified flasks (20% qual);

Life leech will return; 4500x0.2 = 900 hp/sec

5% life regen will return; 4500x.05 = 225 hp/sec

And potion; 700 (+140) over 3 seconds = 280 hp/sec

Not even if you sum up both life regen and potions you can equal life leech gains. First thought is to ofc increase both life regen and potions to match the life leech hp recovery rate:

Usual life regen bumped to 20% - by usual i mean easily aquired through items/passive tree - so you can match life leech gains with some investment.

And increase life granted by potions to 900 hp/sec or uhm in sanctified's case, 900x3=2700, 2700 life over 3 seconds.

Equalizing all forms of regen though brings a even worse problem to the game;

Too much regen!

And to fix that you simply limit the global regen to a max of 20% hp / sec. If you wanna focus on pots, you have pots strong enough to not gimp yourself; If you instead wanna leech, you can, like did before; and if you just wanna flat regen its ok too.

I think numbers are too high for the recovery rates though; Maybe would be best 10% max for each, and 20% global. You should however be able to focus on one recovery type, like a vaal pact type of keystone for flat regen and pots.