Cleave: The dual wielding penalty for Cleave is now multiplicative and includes elemental damage.

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Wooser69 wrote:

~in a perfect world~ there wouldn't be any skills that explicitly favour dual wield, but dual wielding itself was good enough without having to rely on specific skills to make it work like dual strike or cleave.

Um. There's a total of 2 skills that use both weapons. For skills that alternate weapons, there's a net dps loss (unless you have DW bonuses) unless your 2nd weapon has similar dps to your main weapon. For skills that only use the MH, why are you dual wielding...? So no, dual wielding isn't very good without dual wielding skills.

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FacetiousTomato wrote:

Wow, never thought of the fact that the aura nerf on top of the cleave nerf really means cleave is gutted.

Like... I don't understand GGG's balance philosophy

Month 1 - It is fine
Month 2 - It is fine
Month 3 - It is fine
Month 4 - It is fine
Month 5 - It is fine
Month 6 - It is fine
Month 7 - It is fine
Month 8 - It is fine
Month 9 - It is fine
Month 10 - TO THE GROUND!!

Funny, but I when I first understood the difference between "reduced" and "less" I thought "WTF why cleave has reduced not less, doesn't make any sense.". I can't resist the felling that they made mistake with cleave, and didn't realise it in time.
But Kaom's is the best example for that quote I think.

This brings cleave more in line with other methods of dual-wielding, so that's good. Only problem is that the other methods of dual-wielding were about as weak as they could get, so it's all trash now. Hopefully dual-wielding in general can get buffed at some point now.

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ifarmpandas wrote:

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Wooser69 wrote:

~in a perfect world~ there wouldn't be any skills that explicitly favour dual wield, but dual wielding itself was good enough without having to rely on specific skills to make it work like dual strike or cleave.

Um. There's a total of 2 skills that use both weapons. For skills that alternate weapons, there's a net dps loss (unless you have DW bonuses) unless your 2nd weapon has similar dps to your main weapon. For skills that only use the MH, why are you dual wielding...? So no, dual wielding isn't very good without dual wielding skills.

That's my point, if dual wielding was made to be good without needing to use dual wield skills you'd be able to make a dual wield build that doesn't do so simply to be able to use dual strike or cleave or double strike with an essensia sanguis in your offhand. More skill varity for dual wield would give it an actual purpose in the game beyond a novelty.

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jakab_ wrote:

I really couldn't believe it when I saw it, after all the complaining that melee is weak they go ahead and nerf one of the better melee builds.

I understand that it's probably a bit too strong in races, but nerfing it endgame too is a bit baffling.

But was it really overpowered in races?

Here is what some top racers have said about Cleave. Summary: don't nerf Cleave, buff other things instead.
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/528877/page/1#p4744714

In Endless Ledge, where all the basic skill gems are available to every class, it turns out Cleave was not a centerpiece of the top builds. Templars didn't even use it, Rangers only used it until they could get ROA running well, and Duelists who centered their build on Cleave did poorly.
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/539106

Cleave appears to be overpowered because it is the strongest melee skill. But ranged skills still beat melee skills. The problem was not that Cleave was OP, the problem was that Cleave was the only melee skill that's not UP. GGG's all over fixing that, though =D

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1mark wrote:

can some1 explain me this?
i dont really understand it...


Cleave: The dual wielding penalty for Cleave is now multiplicative and includes elemental damage



Original Cleave:
Dual Wielding: If the player's weapons have different critical strike chance values, it is possible to critical with one weapon, but not the other. It is also possible to miss with only one of the weapons swung. The decrease to dual wielding damage is additive (not multiplicative). The character tab DPS display is inaccurate for this skill because it doesn't currently account properly for dual wielding attacks.

TL:DR no more op ass cleave spam slap chop build, now your one of us!

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Wooser69 wrote:

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ifarmpandas wrote:

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Wooser69 wrote:

~in a perfect world~ there wouldn't be any skills that explicitly favour dual wield, but dual wielding itself was good enough without having to rely on specific skills to make it work like dual strike or cleave.

Um. There's a total of 2 skills that use both weapons. For skills that alternate weapons, there's a net dps loss (unless you have DW bonuses) unless your 2nd weapon has similar dps to your main weapon. For skills that only use the MH, why are you dual wielding...? So no, dual wielding isn't very good without dual wielding skills.

That's my point, if dual wielding was made to be good without needing to use dual wield skills you'd be able to make a dual wield build that doesn't do so simply to be able to use dual strike or cleave or double strike with an essensia sanguis in your offhand. More skill varity for dual wield would give it an actual purpose in the game beyond a novelty.

Ah my bad. I don't actually read any of these posts; I just skim them all.

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Aelloon wrote:

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mazul wrote:

TL.DR: R.I.P. all cleaves.

This.

It's going be a gigantic hit in DPS. Especially since you can't wear multiple auras anymore and it is rather unlikely the new changes will increase aura effectiveness multiple times (which it would have to do to stay even with just you missing auras).

you can wear more then 1 aura... with the nodes that is