0 Shadow players in top 60 on Hardcore Ladder

I have just noticed that currently on hardcore ladder there is not one single Shadow player above level 60, and not even one in the top 60.

This is something that GGG needs to look into, clearly survivability is a huge issue with this class. There is no easy way of getting HP/ES early game, to do so is a huge investment that will gimp you so badly that it won't even be viable. I can only assume this is why most shadow users only play default.

I have been testing out the shadow class, though only up to levels 30-40 and each time he feels extremely weak even with S&B.

Does any high level experienced Shadow players have anything to add on this issue? Clearly the hardcore ladder is pointing the obvious out. and yes I understand that Shadow is a high crit class, but every class should be equally viable in hardcore.

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Desbris wrote:

I have just noticed that currently on hardcore ladder there is not one single Shadow player above level 60, and not even one in the top 60.

This is something that GGG needs to look into, clearly survivability is a huge issue with this class. There is no easy way of getting HP/ES early game, to do so is a huge investment that will gimp you so badly that it won't even be viable. I can only assume this is why most shadow users only play default.

I have been testing out the shadow class, though only up to levels 30-40 and each time he feels extremely weak even with S&B.

Does any high level experienced Shadow players have anything to add on this issue? Clearly the hardcore ladder is pointing the obvious out. and yes I understand that Shadow is a high crit class, but every class should be equally viable in hardcore.

Shadow is clearly not the easiest class to play, and in my opinion, melee shadow probably is one of the toughest builds to play in HC.

the survivability issue shadows face is easily offset by their dps in end-game. Problem is, no one has reached end-game yet.

you'll probably see more shadows reaching higher levels in HC once the current crop of shadows get to know the strengths/weaknesses/playstyle of their characters more intimately. (i loled when i saw the char name Katiesninthshadow. she's bound to get one right eventually!)

i daresay part of the reason why you don't see any shadows in the higher end of the ladder currently is because most of the experienced HC shadows I know are not really playing much atm or just doing something else.

For instance: Kotao is playing a mara, no idea what Victo is doing atm, devmoon is playing oddball builds, and i simply don't have time or the motivation atm to grind again just before the OB wipe.

Cheers for the response, just thought it was interesting and some food for thought for GGG, I am really enjoying Shadow, granted I am only 30s in HC so my experience with them is limited, but it is a shame to see how little representation they have atm in HC.

I will be in the top 60! I haven't had much playtime but I just cleared merci vaal and should be able to run 60 maps pretty safely.

gj ryyd! stay alert and don't get complacent in maps :)

Much credit to you my friend! I'm running your LS CI build. shadow progression is a lot fun. It's a huge struggle at first and than improves vastly with level and gear upgrades. getting my chest 6L would be great but otherwise so far so good. 54th on ladder as of now =)

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Ryyyder wrote:

Much credit to you my friend! I'm running your LS CI build. shadow progression is a lot fun. It's a huge struggle at first and than improves vastly with level and gear upgrades. getting my chest 6L would be great but otherwise so far so good. 54th on ladder as of now =)

aye it is! great job, will keep track of your progress! :)

This is what I think:

Shadows are probably the worst class to start a hc ladder with. In my opinion the two main reasons are a lack of good defense nodes in the midrange of the shadow area and bad early skillgem rewards in comparison to other classes.


Skilltree:

As soon as you finish the Hybrid Eva/ES Cluster and grab Fitness you have to use at least 4 skill points to get to the next life-cluster (which leads you nowhere and has no major node), 6 skillpoints to get to the next hybrid ES/Eva-cluster (in which case you need to spend points into charges you will probably not be able to build up at this point/ever) and a whopping 7 points to get to pure ES nodes.

Getting there means you will have to grab either completely useless nodes (charges) or minor nodes(dex/int), you dont have any option to take offensive or other defensive nodes along that path (except for the assassination cluster which takes 2-3 more skill points to get through effectively).



Gem rewards:

Your first gem reward with a solely defensive purpose is grace which you get at the baleful gem-quest in normal and wont protect you from casts. You then have to wait until after the Brutus-Quest in Cruel until you get your next defensive aura with discipline which will be around level 30.
Until then you have to go with summon skeletons, freeze mine or cold snap as defensive options, which of the last two are (almost) useless at the moment and the first one is not a viable option for melees.
And besides that you dont get to choose enfeeble, temporal chains or even warlords mark as a curse for the longest time, which further limits your defensive options (but hey, you can choose projectile weakness 3 times).

If you play a melee-character you got it even worse: Since you are a DEX/INT hybrid it may be logical that you won't see a single red skillgem reward for either the entire game or at least the first two difficulties (ok, you can pick up that new totem since one of the latest patches which will do no good for you).

Therefore you won't have access to either melee-phys. dmg, life on hit, warlords mark and added fire damage (and lifeleech which you won't use early on anyway). That may also affect ranged and casterbuilds but in a less extreme fashion.


All in all this means that you need to overcome these disadvantages by having better gear than your average low/midlevel-character and that you have to either get lucky with gem drops or trade with other players.
Both options are limited when you start a character in a new league and become less of a problem later on.

What this does not mean is that its impossible to get a shadow in the top-rankings without trading/twinking, it just is harder than with other classes and we will probably see some highlevel shadows in HC soon.

E: I am currently taking a break from PoE, except for participating in the 3h races when I feel like it.

Agree with pretty much everything you said there Victo. A few additional things:

Shadows Lack of armor makes the entire grind a struggle. Don't even think about attempting any flicker mob areas until you are adequately/overleveled. Most of the optimal shadow builds are melee but it's difficult to actually do anything melee until later on. I spent the first half of the game using fire traps/temp chains with lightning strike from afar. I've been through 3-4 shadows now most dying mid cruel or ruthless and had to learn my lessons the hard way.

Mana becomes an issue as well in the early levels with the only mana nodes being after the ES nodes in the witch tree. Prepare to chug mana pots constantly.

Most of the shadows main damage passives are critical based and these don't pay off until later in the game. Mara for example, gets tons of damage from str nodes and a few 2handers/mace nodes directly en route to tanky nodes. I did a few zones in cruel/ruthless with my friends ground slammer and he was one shotting and tanking everything while i was basically just a temp chain totem for him.

Gear:
Early mid game energy shield gear really lacks. Combine this with the fact that you won't be getting most of the big ES nodes til late 20's early 30's. This makes for an awkward mid game stage where you pretty much need to take all local ES nodes and Life nodes as well. Having a decent build up of HP/ES will make you pretty safe to most mobs but makes you very vulnerable to the chaos dealers in act 2. Act 2 cruel was probably the hardest part of my grind. Additionally, I'm finding it really difficult to get the right gear slots for my Lightning strike. I need my chest to be pure energy shield to survive, yet getting a green-red mix without too many blues is burning up chrom stacks without success. I had to spend my currency on gear upgrades every 5-6 levels just so I could safely progress.

On the other hand though, The moment I switched to CI(level 48) and started using blood rage was a breath of fresh air and made the grind feel worth it. Now that my gear is pretty decent for my level and I have the mana regen to support my skills I can pretty much go nuts and have a blast. This is by far the most fun build I have tried thus far.

I'm not sure if shadow really needs a buff yet. It may just be that it is a late game based class. I really like the reward you get for the hard work it does provide a sense of accomplishment for the struggle. I'm currently running 60/61 maps with relative ease and should continue to progress. I'll keep you guys updated and will have more insight into the class in the next few weeks.

witch 43.5
templar 52.8
shadow 146.85
ranger 56.9
marauder 40.25
duelist 98.95


Top 20 HC players ave. position... lower is better.

clearly Duelists and particularly Shadows are far behind the others.