GGG Why should auras be meaningful instead of compensate in builds?

after seeing the leaked skill tree, i'm rly disappointed. there are the same old mana reduce passives we have now pretty much in the same places. so if you wanna run 3-4 auras, better make a templar. talk about build diversity nerf.. there are many new passives added but i didn't see more related to mana cost for auras. i understand the tree is not finished but i'd be surprised if it's not nearly final. it's not like they have time to add new passives and test them properly in time.

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More to the point, I watch streamers do week races (most recently Turbo), and that isn't softcore. They can't die. And do you really think they have all resistances capped, and impervious defenses? Hell no they don't. They are undergeared, underleveled, and quite often are using an inferior build (Kripparrian isn't exactly known as "top theorycrafter" by anyone sane). But they survive, because they play smart and compensate for those weaknesses. And they do well. Very well. It's publicly available proof-of-concept.

This has no relevance at all where it matters. Racing and actual game play on SC and HC are completely different animals and no one actually has to play like that unless their playing for the first time.

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Here's what's really going on: people don't want to play the hack-and-slash game, they want to play the gear-and-skilltree game, then zombie-mode their way through the hack-and-slash part. It seems the objective is to make a build so powerful that it won't die to virtually any threat in the game even if piloted by a trained chimp, dedicating all your brainpower and energy into build design and theorycrafting... and then pilot it like a trained chimp.

Absolutely spot on but reflect and thorns will still kill most end game builds.

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But in all dead seriousness, the most difficult content in the game should be gated by actual play skill. Even with the best, most OP builds in the game and literally perfect items, how you move and click should be the determining factor in whether you beat said content or not. This means: characters should have defensive weaknesses. Yes, every character should have map affixes they cannot auto-pilot their way through alone; I'm not saying every character should have a map affix which kills them instantly (like Blood Magic for CI), but an affix where you're pretty much gimped and you're relying on your party members to carry you? Absolutely. That, or if you're solo... just reroll the thing. Or, better yet, grow some hair on your balls and actually risk your character's life trying something extraordinarily risky.

It is absolutely silly if not naive to think poe end game can be based around skill. How much skill can be used vs reflect, burst damage, lag, isp burp, thorns, rng. As you said, the ultimate goal is to reach a point where you can faceroll the crap out of the content by doing literally nothing but holding down the right mouse click. If you arent playing for this, what the hell are you playing for by investing time and energy into building gear wealth and levels? Ar you going to self impose self found rules and reroll each time you reach level 60 so you can get that fresh new game smell? The exciting stages of the game where your gear is gimpy and your still progressing levels is a tiny fraction of the poe gaming experience and is gone forever past a certain level threshold.

Granted, even perfectly optimized builds will still die to a host of factors, maybe of them are somewhat skill related such as not meleeing vaal as a ranged character, knowing to not blindly shoot into a pack of knights in case of thorns and positioning yourself so you do not get rammed by 6 rhoas at a time.

Also, taking a 'risk' is the most absurd thing you can do at high levels. What do you hope to gain in exchange for the 12 hours(and 5 exalts) you invested to get that 10% exp?

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Anything less isn't catering to the hardcore gamer, it's catering to the no-lifer. There is a difference. The hardcore gamer is a challenge-seeker, a thrill-seeker; the no-lifer just plays a lot, and thus reaches the endgame quickly, and is willing to do the same thing over and over and over again. They're the ones who follow the trained-chimp school of ARPG play the hardest. And I hope GGG can make the distinction between the two and keep adrenaline, truly difficult content, and meaningful choice all important factors in endgame maps.

In a game with a low skill ceiling(with regards to non-racing) like poe hardcore is almost analogous to no lifer by most definitions. Tell me how you can make maps more challenging than they already are for the 'hardcore' gamer who did not invest as much time as the no lifer and yet will never progress past level 90 exactly because he did not invest as much time building high end gear like the no lifer?

You make the content more difficult and skill based and everyone except the no lifer suffers greatly. It does not matter your relative skill level, you will not progress past a certain level because the game is so unbelievably good at screwing you over.

End game poe will amount to a few simple things: optimizing your build and gear set and grinding high maps until level 100. At that point you have beaten poe and you will likely need to wait a few months or years until GGG releases new end game content. What you seem to think is that poe should feel a bit more like a moba game(hon,lol,dota2) and I really do not it should.

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Nephalim wrote:

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More to the point, I watch streamers do week races (most recently Turbo), and that isn't softcore. They can't die. And do you really think they have all resistances capped, and impervious defenses? Hell no they don't. They are undergeared, underleveled, and quite often are using an inferior build (Kripparrian isn't exactly known as "top theorycrafter" by anyone sane). But they survive, because they play smart and compensate for those weaknesses. And they do well. Very well. It's publicly available proof-of-concept.

This has no relevance at all where it matters. Racing and actual game play on SC and HC are completely different animals

Bullshit. It's not a different Docks, or a different Piety, or different maps. It's the exact same fucking content. It's obviously not any harder if you're given more time to do it.

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Nephalim wrote:

It is absolutely silly if not naive to think poe end game can be based around skill.

Then what the fuck is it based around? Is the only difference between Path of Exile and CookieClicker the ability to customize the cookie, and a different "achievements" scheme? Is that what you seriously consider to be a "hardcore ARPG designed by hardcore gamers?"

People actually like having their skill tested. The only question is: which skill, at which time? A large game like PoE actually consists of several different games — build design, item valuation, haggling/flipping, knowing how to craft/gamble properly, Starcraft-style unit control — each of which can have different modes — permanent vs temporary vs race leagues, hardcore vs softcore, PvE or PvP — and different players are going to like some, potentially hate others. Each of these games tests fundamentally different skills and satisfies different player desires; I don't want to make like the unit control thing is the only skill, because build design and trading are both skill tests of their own. But in order to really be at the top of any league — perm or temp or race, HC or SC — you should be a good player in all of the minigames... while simultaneously, you should be able to do "okay" if you're only really into one or two of them. It's okay for everyone to have their favorite track event they stick to, but if you really want to prove you're hot shit, you need to win the decathlon.

It seems that your aim is to marginalize game modes which you don't enjoy, increase the reward schedule and otherwise buff the game modes which you do, and overall destroy the concept of a well-rounded player. Me? I want all of these different mini-games to have relevance and viability, which means I don't want to see any one of them made too dominant.

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Nephalim wrote:

As you said, the ultimate goal is to reach a point where you can faceroll the crap out of the content by doing literally nothing but holding down the right mouse click.

You weren't listening carefully. I said that it's the ultimate goal for some. That's not all. That's not me.

give it a rest, arpgs are not skill intensive games, they are farm fests.

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ultrahiangle wrote:

give it a rest, arpgs are not skill intensive games, they are farm fests.

Have to agree. Very little skill is required in these games.

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iamstryker wrote:

Have to agree. Very little skill is required in these games.

Kinda depends on the game itself, game speed is a major indicator, if your character is responsive and enemies are fast it's usually tweaked to be more skill-based then slower games.

Compare, for example, Nox and Sacred. First one is very skill-based, enemies run, kite, swarm you, retreat... and your character can do all that too. Controls take a bit of getting used to, though, they're very strange for the genre, good gear will help (for a time, it breaks FAST) but it's all up to skill, ultimately. Sacred, on the other hand is a slow game with clunky controls, you will get hit and get hit a lot so you better build to withstand it, a prime example of a build/gearcheck game.

If I'd try to put PoE somewhere I'd put it into the second category, enemies are slow and dumb, your skills uninterrruptable and motions not very responsive. No helping it, due to online nature of the game I guess it wouldn't be convenient trying to speed it up.

I do not remember Nox being much different.

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iamstryker wrote:

I do not remember Nox being much different.

Oh, it was, your gear deteriorated awfully fast so you used subpar gear most of the time with warrior and saved good one for harder encounters, mana was limited for mages and there was generally no convenient way to passively boost your abilities, it was all up to your approach to the situation and skill. Also, there was a finite number of enemies, a thing we see only in Torchlight (core content) these days.

You might say it's not an arpg in the modern sense but it was back then, in the meantime, arpg came to imply grinding, and a lot of it. That usually takes time so games became slower and slower as it's hard to keep your concentration up that long, so the gameplay gradually became boring. Pretty much the only measure of quality in an arpg these days is the metagame, if it's interesting it's a good game, if it's not, well...