"WTB/WTS *Insert Item HERE*"

I love how the response to fair and balanced trading is to snub the nose and cite an extremely absurd hypothetical. Note, the scenario in the op is not a hypothetical one.

"

So you want good gear to be cheap enough where any random noob who plays a couple hrs a day can afford upgrades? Upgrades are not supposed to be easy to get.

First of all, I never said anything about easy upgrades. I see no problem with obtaining gear reasonably. Something that seems almost futile in the current trading situation which could expand in terms of being an issue with the vague statements Chris Wilson elicited in the release teaser video.

"

This isn't D3 where you can just AH all your gear and get instant gratification.

I don't even know how to respond to this nonsense. First of all, D3 did not function this way. If it did there wouldn't have been immediate insurrection. Secondly, no one said anything about wanting an AH or any of the ideologies that come with said system.

"

Starting out in this game from scratch is not supposed to be easy, its supposed to be hard.

There is a difference in character stagnation and growth. If a player's char grows at a snails pace if at all his experience deteriorates. This is what I am seeing happen because when tey figure out that their build enabler is being sold at ridiculous rates they give up and just fall into cookie cutter scenarios that don't require a whole lot of currency. RPg's going all the way back to pen and paper models always have good character growth and don't promote what I just said.

"

New players have to earn their place by struggling through the same things everyone else that got to where they are now had to do. This is why when noobs bitch, whine, cry, and complain it falls on deaf ears, and they also get flamed for it.

I wish you could hear yourself right now. You are suggesting that there is only one way to an end result as if we still lived in a primitive world and society. Get over it. You're overly exaggerated E-Peen doesn't impress everyone.

"

I see the Problem from the other Side. Post an good Item here in Forum and u will get Lowball Offers every Day..
2 GCP for Maligaros?
I dont answer for that, a few Min later comes the same Question...
Today, i got an Offer over 1 Chaos for

Verified

Verified
each of them. The People wonder about that i am not answer???

This is what is great about my solution. It attempts to more realistically impose clear prices for items. It should in theory reduce room for both lowballing and ripping people off. I'm sorry, but my anecdotal experience involves seeing an item listed for 2-6 gcp across many sales and when I go to purchase it I get snobby elitists telling me the lowest offer is an extraordinary markup of what they would pay for it. On top of this they refuse to negotiate. That is aside from the fact that the item has relatively low rolls across the board.

PS- I've been playing longer than my account suggests.

"

LeandroHazard wrote:

I see the Problem from the other Side. Post an good Item here in Forum and u will get Lowball Offers every Day..
2 GCP for Maligaros?
I dont answer for that, a few Min later comes the same Question...
Today, i got an Offer over 1 Chaos for

each of them. The People wonder about that i am not answer???

2chaos for ring

"

MrSmiley21 wrote:

I'm not willing to deal with noobs looking to make me a lowball offer, even if its all the assortment of random low-tier orb currency they have for a single item I got. If these people are trolling, then my hat is off to them with a perfect 10 score. The worst offender was some noob offering me about 5-6 chaos total worth of random orbs for an andvarius ring. It was such a lowball offer, that I had to troll that noob. I had the item in the trade window, and came up with a BS lie about the trade not working and that they should email support because trade doesn't work.

Won't deal with low ball offers.

Trades Brightbeak for Eternal.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

Yes, I am making another Game-econ thread about the woes of bartering with people in game. Something really needs to be done about this. I can't tell if the average gamer is a econ genius or just horribly delusional. i'm honestly leaning more toward the latter. The only solution I can come up with is to limit trades. Reduce the stack count on trading. Severely limit trading to level off the economy. Here is the scenario and if you don't see a problem with it you have a severe mental issue.

Spoiler

Player 1: "WTB (Insert item/s here)"
Player 2: "How much you offer"
Player 1: "How much will you let go of the item for?"
Player 2: Option 1- "Make meh teh offerz" or Option 2- "5ex"
Player 1: Option 1- "Reasonable offer" Option 2- "What?? That has such low rolls"
Player 2: ....

Player 1: "WTS (Insert item/s here) 5ex"
Player 1: "WTS (Insert item/s here) 5ex"
Player 1: "WTS (Insert item/s here) 1ex"
Player 1: "WTS (Insert item/s here) 3ex"
Option 1- Player 1: "Y U NO BUY MY STUFF AT RIDICULOUS PRICES"
Option 2- Player 2: "That's ridiculous prices bro"
======= Player 1: "Whatevs nub, L2P"
======= Player 3: "I'll pay a ridiculous price for a mediocore item/roll"

back to my solution... Limit trading to demoralize outrageously asinine asking prices. As an example you could make exalted orbs only trad-able in stacks of one and only one stack per trade. That's an extreme case but this would discourage players to rip off new players as well as protect the market from inflation which ultimately destroys the experience for players.

Sorry bros, but the ONLY way to equalize the economy is a full wipe. That's about it.

/end discussion

"

Icholas wrote:

"

MrSmiley21 wrote:

Why should I be embarrassed? I'm proud of it, to the point where I've boasted about that a few times on the forums. Someone could accuse me of trolling, but its a true story. Flaming? Maybe. Because I generally share this in topics where people whine about new players getting ripped off.

'The worst I've ever ripped a noob off'

'I'd do it again in a second, and do it all day every day if I could get away with it.'

I thought that was pretty obviously an undesirable characteristic in a person. Kinda puts you on the very bottom of the ladder (behaviour wise) that includes the dodgy car salesmen and ends with the people who rip off old folk.

edit: Should preface with Imo. I have no objection to traders making profit, but an outrageous one gained through the ignorance of one party, not cool. There's a reason people value honesty in business. Removed last line, too personal, sorry.

I agree and I will do my best to avoid trading with Mr Smiley (what an appropriate name for someone that trades like a used car salesman)

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

This is what is great about my solution. It attempts to more realistically impose clear prices for items.

Im with you on your gripe but I generally dont get involved in the trading. I kinda use my cousin Vvaridus as a guide since he gets the hang of trading systems really quickly. I will stick to the blind luck of a drop or a trade.

I dont understand how a full wipe will remedy the problems tho. How does a wipe impose clear prices?

and what would stop either:

A- the prices returning to what they are now?

or

B- the old players imposing the same pricing?

"

AnaLoGMunKy wrote:

I dont understand how a full wipe will remedy the problems tho. How does a wipe impose clear prices?

and what would stop either:

A- the prices returning to what they are now?

or

B- the old players imposing the same pricing?

I actually didn't suggest a full wipe but it would probably do the economy some good to restart if you impose trading limits.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

"

AnaLoGMunKy wrote:

I dont understand how a full wipe will remedy the problems tho. How does a wipe impose clear prices?

and what would stop either:

A- the prices returning to what they are now?

or

B- the old players imposing the same pricing?

I actually didn't suggest a full wipe but it would probably do the economy some good to restart if you impose trading limits.

Apologies, was someone else who suggested that. A full wipe would lose many players.

Im also unsure about limiting trading, it would need to be done in a way that doesnt piss people off. Do drops rates change depending on the economy, I cant remember if that was just heresay in another thread or confirmed.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

Here is the scenario and if you don't see a problem with it you have a severe mental issue.

Spoiler

Player 1: "WTB (Insert item/s here)"
Player 2: "How much you offer"
Player 1: "How much will you let go of the item for?"
Player 2: Option 1- "Make meh teh offerz" or Option 2- "5ex"
Player 1: Option 1- "Reasonable offer" Option 2- "What?? That has such low rolls"
Player 2: ....

Player 1: "WTS (Insert item/s here) 5ex"
Player 1: "WTS (Insert item/s here) 5ex"
Player 1: "WTS (Insert item/s here) 1ex"
Player 1: "WTS (Insert item/s here) 3ex"
Option 1- Player 1: "Y U NO BUY MY STUFF AT RIDICULOUS PRICES"
Option 2- Player 2: "That's ridiculous prices bro"
======= Player 1: "Whatevs nub, L2P"
======= Player 3: "I'll pay a ridiculous price for a mediocore item/roll"

back to my solution... Limit trading to demoralize outrageously asinine asking prices. As an example you could make exalted orbs only trad-able in stacks of one and only one stack per trade. That's an extreme case but this would discourage players to rip off new players as well as protect the market from inflation which ultimately destroys the experience for players.

So let me see if I get this straight...

You have a problem with the way other players value items and haggle, especially when they're way off... yet your solution to this is to limit players actual trading, forcing them to be even more picky about the trades they do make... and this is supposed to reduce the haggling behavior you dislike? Your "solution" ramps up stupidity, it doesn't eliminate it.

Although we'd definitely prefer they did it in a more civilized and intelligent manner, people disagreeing about prices during trading is fantastic. The attitude and cliches might not be what we want, but the disagreement is.

Why? Let's think about farming for a bit. The designers could make farming:

• stupid easy, in which case it's no fun because there's no challenge
• difficult based on stupid things, like if they deliberately made desync worse, which is no fun because the challenge is arbitrary and doesn't reward you for being smart
• difficult based on some form of skill, which is the ideal

Trading is also supposed to be a challenge. No, it's not supposed to be like going to the supermarket and picking up whatever you want quickly and easily. No, it's not supposed to be blocked by arbitrary restrictions that do nothing to effect skill balance. It's supposed to be PvP item valuation where two rational players can look at the exact same item and come up with significantly different prices, leading to a battle of wits where the superior haggler emerges both victorious and profitable.

If you don't like engaging in battles of wits with the community at large, you can blame the community for that... not the core system. You'd think a lot of players would have better things to do than ridiculous lowball/highball strategies that are rarely effective on the competent and waste large amounts of time. But that's their choice, their strategy on how to play the trading game, and since it's PvP it's your problem, not the game's. (You were right, there is a problem in that situation; the thing you were wrong about is whose.) Come up with your own counterstrategy and find a way to win, and stop expecting the game to feed you everything on a silver platter.

"

Apologies, was someone else who suggested that. A full wipe would lose many players.

No problem there. However I don't think we'd lose that many players with a fresh start in the economy. Many players are already calling for it. Maybe if they wiped items and left currencies.

"

Im also unsure about limiting trading, it would need to be done in a way that doesnt piss people off. Do drops rates change depending on the economy, I cant remember if that was just heresay in another thread or confirmed.

I'm not sure what you are referring to on the drop rates, but I don't think you can fix trading without making some players mad. They either promote the illusion that they have solved trading woes or they act and hurt some feelings. I could be wrong but I don't see how they could work around all the different opinions and make trading fun rather than painful.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

@ScrotieMcB
- No where was it stated that these players haggle. Haggling requires two people participating in a conversation about the price of an object. That is actually the opposite of what has been shown to happen. In most cases you just have someone completely ignoring and snubbing their nose at anything less than an Exalt, which is pretty elusive to the majority of players.

That is a form of haggling. Perhaps a stupid form of it, but that player is making a statement about the price of the item: he says it is 1 Exalt or more.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

- No where did I say it should be easy to gear up.

Never said you did; I am just saying that it should be difficult.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

- Trading is not an exclusively PvP influenced system. That is a completely foolish idea.

Just to clarify, I don't mean that dueling (in-game PvP) should be what drives prices between players. What I mean is that in trading there are winners and there are losers, and thus it's a competition between players for who has the most accurate item valuation and haggling skills. (To further clarify: it's not always the same winners and the same losers. Every trader has some form of win-loss ratio, losing value on some trades and gaining value on others. There's no conspiracy here.)

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

-We? We??... I think you should just speak for yourself. You may find it easier to communicate with people when you aren't imposing this blurry or false ideal that you speak for the community. Especially since I have seen plenty of people on the forums express disdain for the way trading occurs. I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings that you will have less room to overprice items and rip people off if this idea was approved of but many fair players would like a chance to try their build without enduring twelve year old logic.

I am not questioning anyone's disdain; I am questioning their "solutions." Gamers often try to fix in-game frustration by making the system easier or allowing ways to bypass it; this almost never leads to increased enjoyment. Players might think they want convenience, but they don't; they want well-designed challenges. However, that doesn't mean that they don't know a bad gaming experience when they see one. They do. It's there, the problem is very much real, and most of the proposed solutions to said problem are dog shit.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

-You and others like you only seem to be capable of thinking and acting in extremes. That's the exact attitude I am talking about. Either the item is completely overpriced or vendor trash based on your whimsical understanding. It makes no difference how valuable the item actually is. In your opinion there is no compromise, no grey area, and no reason to humor such interactions. It's like Obama and his attitude has overtaken every bit of society.

This is an unfair characterization of me; I believe in a wide variety of possible market values, on a continuum from 1 Chaos all the way to 100 Exalts. I also believe firmly that a good ARPG economy preserves encounter variance, by which I mean that who you happen to encounter can make an item sell for much less or much more, rather than being utterly predictable; thus, even vendor trash can sell pretty well if you find the right person.

In most ARPGs, the largest source of encounter variance are noobs. This leads to a general stigma against those who try to use encounter variance; they're seen as seal-clubbers whose tradecraft is dishonesty bordering on fraud. This usually leads to an outcry against "flipping" and the suggestion of systems to curtail it. Such systems, however, are misguided. The more easy it becomes for noobs — and thus for everyone — to pin down prices, the more predictable and boring trading becomes. It leads to exactly the dichotomy you accused me of — seeing all items as either vendor trash or hypervaluable, because there is no way to get more for your vendor trash, and no way to get the hypervaluable for less, assuming you put the effort in. Trading skill is no longer rewarded under those systems.

This isn't saying that I support the seal-clubbers, far from it. What I want to see is a system where noobs are no longer the greatest source of encounter variance, where even veteran players can get swindled hardcore by another player whose superior theory, item valuation, and negotiation skills give him an edge. Feeding off noobs should not be the way to put yourself on the top of the food chain; therefore, what we need is not to get rid of the sharks, but instead even bigger sharks that eat the current sharks.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

-There is a clearly visible line between challenging and frustrating. I've seen trading as more frustrating for both parties than challenging and rewarding. It would be nice if we had a challenging rather than frustrating experience to see a build realized.

Actually, the line between challenging and frustrating isn't very clear, and I believe there is a good deal of overlap. I'm sure you can think of some challenges in other games which were in fact very frustrating before you overcame them, and a tremendous feeling of victory when you finally overcame the challenge and vindicated all that frustration. Not saying that frustrating is a good thing by itself, at the very least it needs something else to justify its existence... but let's not pretend the line is clear. If it was, game design would be the easiest shit ever.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

-Disagreement isn't bad this is true. Disagreement on an astronomical and fundamental level as has been illustrated is an issue. The problem isn't just that people disagree about value, but the values are astronomically different. Just today I saw several threads about overpriced selling tactics. i mean, look around you... I'm pretty sure that if you have enough people suggesting that the duck makes a quack sound it's obviously a duck that makes a quack sound.

Huh?

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

-That comment about wit was cute, but you're gonna have to be a little less subtle with your insults. Still, you cite irrelevant conclusions based on what? I want a fair and balanced trading system, that is all. you seem to be combating a notion that doesn't exist.

I didn't insult you (not to say that you weren't insulted). I actually have no idea what you're talking about as far as that goes.

"

Magnetic_n0rth wrote:

Actually lets review just what goes into trading to see where you actually have no basis for the assumption that I want the game to be easy.

Spoiler

Step 1: Research currency exchange rates.
Step 2: research item rolls and values.
Step 3: Ask people in game about current prices and exchange rates. (This community has a nack for pissing on people for no good reason and trolling on a consistent basis)
Step 4: Farm same content til your eyes bleed to earn enough currency to trade with.
Step 5: Spam chat until you get a pm.
Step 6: deal with unruly gamers on prices where it's offensive to use hours of research and experience to determine a reasonable price range for an item.
Step 7: Always feel unsatisfied with whatever conclusion you came to be you either gave into the childish demands of someone who clearly overpriced an item or walked away from a potential trade.
Step 8: rinse and repeat steps 3-7 until you are so annoyed you don't even want to log in.

I'd say that's pretty toxic and on a systemic level. From spending hours of research and always having your browser up to learn how to interact in the game to dealing with bull headed trading mentalities like yours.

Like I said earlier, a lot of the problem is with the community, not the design per se. Why consistently troll people making price checks? Why do traders make childish demands? Can you seriously blame GGG for this behavior?

I guess to a minor extent, one actually can. Remember earlier in this post when I was saying noobs are a major source of encounter variance? Well, if you don't give players an alternate means to make profitable trades, you're going to end up with a large contingent of "professional seal-clubbers." They're going to treat other players like noobs because noobs are their targets. Increasing the skill factor in trading might help to make this strategy a little less popular.

However, I think the worst offenders go beyond simply targeting noobs, and engage in behavior to be intentionally demeaning and rude. It's almost as if, because you demonstrated enough intelligence to show you're not a noob yourself, they get angry and lash out at you, punishing you for not being a moron. This might be a predictable emotional response, but it's utterly irrational and actually hurts their bottom line. So why do they do it? Whatever the reason, it's on them; it's not GGG's fault.