ScrotieMcB vs Desync Dev Manifesto (Massive Wall Map of Text)
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Spoiler
I won't pretend to be particularly tech savvy or to have any ideas as to what will or will not work to improve the desync situation. What I will comment on is this.
You, in the second sentence of your OP, Scrotie, say "I don't really believe in petty name-calling, so don't do it.". Within ten seconds of reading, you then proceed to call Chris a liar. I'm not qualified to make any assertions on the validity of your thoughts, but I can't say I approve of this particular bit of hypocrisy. No offense. Last edited by Thaelyn on Aug 24, 2013, 12:54:48 PM
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" That is a lot "fuck" to give. ;) I can understand if most players really want GGG to make this their first priority above all else. Sometimes you can take the game out of the garage but you can't take the garage out of the game.
- raics, 06.08.2016 |
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" It's not really hypocrisy when you call someone out on the carpet for what they are. If someone lies to you, and you know they did, then calling them a 'liar' is not an example of 'petty name-calling', it's saying what the person is. If someone steals something from you and you call them a 'thief', that's not calling someone a petty name, that's labeling them for what they are...a thief. There's a big difference between that and...say...calling someone a 'douche nozzle' just because you don't agree with them on something. THAT is an example of petty name-calling. People are a little too quick to throw out the hypocrisy label nowadays, kind of like how the 'troll' label gets thrown around way too much on the Internet, too. Sorry to derail the thread a bit with this, but after reading it and seeing what Scrotie said...well...I don't find him calling Chris a liar to be hypocritical. Harsh truth, perhaps? Perhaps, but not in the same league as other things I've seen around here. | |
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Spoiler
" You say the word hypocrisy is thrown around too freely yet ignore that very fact in relation to the word liar. There's a difference between telling a lie and being wrong. In order for something to be a lie, the statement must be driven by the intent to deceive. Lying is an act of will, not a mistake or accidental omission. Context also matters. Within what Scrotie posted, Chris said that they will not trust the client, while talking about game state. It seems to me that his "We will never do this" statement carries with it the understood context that they will never trust the client to determine game state. The map data example does not show this to be a lie, or in any way inaccurate. Calling Chris a liar is petty name calling, if you take an objective look and acknowledge that words have meanings. Last edited by Thaelyn on Aug 24, 2013, 12:54:36 PM
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" Map data is part of the state of the game. Unless you want to turn this into a semantics argument...And those don't go anywhere. This is why he is calling you out on throwing the word around freely. By throwing around the "hypocrisy" word, you are drawing the attention away from the core issue here (desync) and are instead funneling attention into a semantics argument. I would classify it as off-topic. Last edited by tikitaki on Aug 24, 2013, 12:44:05 PM
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" Fair enough. I'll go back and spoiler my comments so as to avoid unnecessary derailing.
Spoiler
" Map data is part of game state in only a loose sense. It is a fixed value that, once determined, is shared with the client and is in absolutely no danger of getting out of sync. There is nothing the client can do that will change the "state" of the map, so within the context of desync, this doesn't belong. | |
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This is what you can expect from this thread:
Outcome 1: A form letter response from the support staff along the lines of "You should read the Manifesto! Don't worry, it's being worked on!" - also "Please don't insult fellow posters! Stay on topic!" Translation of Outcome 1: It will never improve. They don't give a fuck. Outcome 2: No response. Translation of Outcome 2: It will never improve. They don't give a fuck. They have had about a year to hire somebody who knows what the fuck they are doing with netcode. Instead, they just hire more artists and people to make unique items at a faster pace. What a joke. Just look at their staff roster. Nobody there is an expert of netcode. They don't even have a guy who works on this stuff specifically. At best it was hacked together collectively. Last edited by tikitaki on Aug 24, 2013, 2:57:03 PM
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Said it a year ago and i'll say it again: PoE's netcode looks like it was done by somebody with absolutely no previous experience, and GGG doesn't seem to be willing to shell out the money to trash the netcode that is currently in place and replace it (and keeping that programmer away from all future netcode until trained properly).
" It reflects poorly on GGG either way. Either it's a lie, or they had somebody who doesn't know how to write netcode do their current netcode, and then haven't bothered to fix basic aspects of it that anybody with netcode knowledge would have never done in the fisrt place. Last edited by Xendran on Aug 24, 2013, 3:12:50 PM
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Having a (small) experience as a programmer, i can ensure you that to change a thing in a software when you did not plan that thing at the beginning is massive pain, expecially if you want to change something in the core of the software.
Solve desync issue requires a complete rework of the netcode, and it is a very difficult task even supposing that those change does not interact with other aspect of the game (and i do not think that it is the case). Maybe GGG net-coders were not so 'skilled' when they start to write PoE, but of course they are skilled today. But even for a skilled programmer, it is very difficult to 'repair' a broken software, it is not like writing it from stratch. Nevertheless is quite obvious that current net-code/game-status mechanics MUST be fixed. As Scrotie, i would be very pleased if GGG could give us some more detailed info about the subject other than 'Desync is unavoidable'. Maybe we can give them some ideas: there are indeed some smart people in this community. Roma timezone (Italy)
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" I don't think this is entirely accurate, the game's development was started a long time ago, it must've been hard to speculate on infrastructure issues and costs. I think they went super conservative and figured high latency, low bandwidth (and as a result, lots of prediction). In that respect it's still quite impressive, but without working towards more idealized conditions there's not too much room for improvement imo. It may have been a bit naive and coming from a somewhat inexperienced/unskilled position or stance at the time though, but even then it's not like I can say for sure. I've seen stranger decisions from skilled and experienced people. |
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