New Core Stats (STR/DEX/INT) balance

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Vold316 wrote:

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I understand it is very hard to change the core stats (STR/DEX/INT), since everything is based on the core stats, and balancing will require time. However, it seems STR has been too important to be ignored, and pure-DEX becomes less effective.

I can be wrong, and this is not perfect, but just want to start some discussion if something need to be fixed (early rather than later).

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I don't see a problem. IMO.

- There are big nodes of STR/INT/DEX all around the passive tree.
- You can get a lot of either of the stats from equipment.
- I'm pretty sure that GGG has thought about this and none of us undestand how this game works better, also i don't really see the important unbalance of the core stats.

In conclusion, from my point of view, a major change on this is not really needed.

No, you mis-understand. As I said, the point is STR >>> INT > DEX

The changes I am suggesting is to restore the balance by replacing HP (STR) with +Armor, MP (INT) with +Magic Attack, and etc.

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH PASSIVE TREE (as I said on the previous comment)

This would be completely imbalanced when added to current POE. Strength giving both life and armor makes this defense much better. Dexterity providing attack speed would be huge too - there is already a lot available, allowing even more cast speed for freezing pulse builds or whirling blades builds would be simple overpowered. Same with spell damage.

To make system balanced again those bonuses would have to either be:
- very small (and no point in adding them then)
- compensated by nerfing base values and other bonuses (terrible, would make hybrid builds very weak; spell marauder without int, ranged witch without much dex and other would suffer)

Changing base system is very bad idea, all skills, gear and bonuses are based on it. If you feel something needs change, try thinking about certain skills.

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globbi wrote:

This would be completely imbalanced when added to current POE. Strength giving both life and armor makes this defense much better. Dexterity providing attack speed would be huge too - there is already a lot available, allowing even more cast speed for freezing pulse builds or whirling blades builds would be simple overpowered. Same with spell damage.

To make system balanced again those bonuses would have to either be:
- very small (and no point in adding them then)
- compensated by nerfing base values and other bonuses (terrible, would make hybrid builds very weak; spell marauder without int, ranged witch without much dex and other would suffer)

Changing base system is very bad idea, all skills, gear and bonuses are based on it. If you feel something needs change, try thinking about certain skills.

Would you please point out where it said STR gives both Life and Armor?

Edit:
Besides, you are not necessary to nerf anything, if STR=INT=DEX, it should be balanced. The only balance you want is to weight between Passive Tree vs Class Bonus Stats, hint, Customization vs Class restriction. If you want all customization, then you should not have Class restriction at all.

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markshiu wrote:

No, you mis-understand. As I said, the point is STR >>> INT > DEX

The changes I am suggesting is to restore the balance by replacing HP (STR) with +Armor, MP (INT) with +Magic Attack, and etc.

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH PASSIVE TREE (as I said on the previous comment)

No, that's not a point, that's your perception. From my point of view STR != DEX != INT, but you can get from all of them, also the whole passive tree is designed to balance it.

Furthermore, currently, according to the game mechanics:

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Game Mechanics wrote:

Life/mana per level
All classes begin with the same base stats, and gain the same amount per level:

50 life, +6 per level
40 mana, +4 per level
50 evasion, +3 per level (including level 1)

Attributes

Attributes are required to equip gear and skills. The three attributes also grant some passive bonuses:

Strength grants +0.5 life and +0.2% melee physical damage per point
Dexterity grants +2 accuracy and +0.2% evasion per point
Intelligence grants +0.5 mana and +0.2% energy shield per point

With 400 STR you get 200 life, +80% melee physical damage.
With 400 DEX you get 800 accuracy and +80% evasion.
With 400 INT you get 200 mana and +80% energy shield.

If you are level 70, you have 464 base life from levels.
If you are level 70, you have 260 base evasion from levels.
If you are level 70, you have 316 base mana from levels.

At high level, you can have nodes that give % life, % melee physical, % accuracy, % evasion, % mana, % energy shield, and more that improve them.

If you still see a big difference between each stat, those nodes get rid of that difference.

Anyways, i also believe that you can take advantage of any of the stats, if you look at the passive tree and design a good build, but that's not all, you also have to know how to play with that build (Close combat Physical, Close combat elemental, Mid range combat physical, mid range combat elemental, long ranged combat physical, long ranged combat elemental, combinations, etc...).

In the end, even if there is a difference (that i still can't see, honestly), it will no matter.

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Vold316 wrote:

Anyways, i also believe that you can take advantage of any of the stats...

I think the point of this thread is that the advantage you can take of the stats is way bigger for strength than for the other two. Which is quite well known fact or an opinion shared by many, if you want to call that this way. Also the fact that any character can get enough STR to wear any gear doesn't justify its superior position; by the design of this game certain classes have a lot easier access to certain stats.


Also no node will let you get rid off that difference because that node is accessible for the characters with - for example - 400 STR as well.

I personally think that balance matters, nothing wrong if you don't share that opinion but what's the point of posting in a thread about balance then?

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wiggin wrote:

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Vold316 wrote:

Anyways, i also believe that you can take advantage of any of the stats...

I think the point of this thread is that the advantage you can take of the stats is way bigger for strength than for the other two. Which is quite well known fact or an opinion shared by many, if you want to call that this way. Also the fact that any character can get enough STR to wear any gear doesn't justify its superior position; by the design of this game certain classes have a lot easier access to certain stats.


Also no node will let you get rid off that difference because that node is accessible for the characters with - for example - 400 STR as well.

I personally think that balance matters, nothing wrong if you don't share that opinion but what's the point of posting in a thread about balance then?

Thank you for clarifying for me.

I know my solution is not perfect, but rather than do nothing in Beta, I suppose it is good to raise my concern and provide some initial suggestion.

My belief is, a balanced game will provide diversity, and allow innovation. When the playing ground is fair, good things will happen.

You are almost right markshiu. Imo, Try STR>>INT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DEX

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Vold316 wrote:

No, that's not a point, that's your perception. From my point of view STR != DEX != INT, but you can get from all of them, also the whole passive tree is designed to balance it.

Furthermore, currently, according to the game mechanics:



At high level, you can have nodes that give % life, % melee physical, % accuracy, % evasion, % mana, % energy shield, and more that improve them.

If you still see a big difference between each stat, those nodes get rid of that difference.

Anyways, i also believe that you can take advantage of any of the stats, if you look at the passive tree and design a good build, but that's not all, you also have to know how to play with that build (Close combat Physical, Close combat elemental, Mid range combat physical, mid range combat elemental, long ranged combat physical, long ranged combat elemental, combinations, etc...).

In the end, even if there is a difference (that i still can't see, honestly), it will no matter.

STR is better than INT, which is even greater than DEX. I'll explain.

First lets looks at what each gives

STR: Hp, physical damage
INT: Mana, Energy shield
DEX: Evasion, Accuracy

Hp for survival is the best stat out of all the bonuses. Making strength easily the best. Physical damage boost increases your dps which inturn increases your kill speed. STR gives the best defensive stat, with a very good offensive stat.

Mana can be used for offense and defense. If you want to increase both and keep them high constantly, you're gonna need a lot of mana to pull from. Leaving you with little to no life for survivability unless you invest in CI. Energy shield is the best defensive armor type in the game.

Now, that leaves us at the unlucky brother of the group. DEX. I will explain how bad DEX is as I quote you.

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With 400 STR you get 200 life, +80% melee physical damage.
With 400 DEX you get 800 accuracy and +80% evasion.
With 400 INT you get 200 mana and +80% energy shield.

If you are level 70, you have 464 base life from levels.
If you are level 70, you have 260 base evasion from levels.
If you are level 70, you have 316 base mana from levels.

I will use your 400 STR/INT/DEX as examples.

You can substitute "a 400 STR based character" with "life regen HP stacking" marauder. Life regen Hp stacking marauder is the best melee character in the game because of their survivability. Hands down. There is a reason for this. STR increases base HP, which is further helped by "increase Life %" passives, which is further complemented by life regen.

400 INT is practically a CI witch. We all know how much survivability those have.

Now, the real question is what is a 400 DEX character? Cause I haven't seen one yet?

There is a reason why DEX characters go for Iron reflexes. It's to get rid of evasion.

As you lvl, your accuracy(chance to hit) and evasion rating go down. Your HP, Physical damage, Mana, and Energy shield do not scale down as you lvl like accuracy and evasion.

The "+2 accuracy for each DEX" is miniscule as you can roll +200 on gear. To get 200 accuracy from DEX alone you would need 100 DEX. This is the reason practically all marauders/templers/duelist go Resolute technique. Even as a DEX character or DEX hybrid, you're gonna still need to invest in accuracy through gear or "+ Accuracy passive" cause the "+2 or each DEX" doesn't do anything. Accuracy doesn't increase your survivability. It just increases your chance to hit. When you take into consideration the investment you have to make just to keep your accuracy above 80% EVEN AS A DEX BASED CHARACTER (which is low btw), especially the DEX hybrids, you lose a lot of points on the skill tree an mods on gear that could have been used to increase survivability.

Evasion is the worst defense in the game. Don't even get me started on evasion scaling. By lvl 70 your evasion would have scaled so hard you'd wonder why you didn't go iron reflexes or what is the point of ever going evasion. Have you tried creating an evasion or evasion hybrid based character? Do you know how much you invest just to keep your evasion at a "manageable" lvl? You end up loosing a lot of survivability and dps because of trying to keep up with evasion scaling. What's even more funny is that your evasion will also fail you multiple times without warning. You invest so much and it's still not reliable.


Accuracy bonus is miniscule, botherline inconsequential. Evasion is luck based, and requires a hefty investment (more than any armor type), and is the worst defensive mechanic in the game currently.

HP, Physical damage, Mana, and Energy shield do not scale down. Nor are their bonuses miniscule. HP and Energy shield increase your survivability. Mana can be used for offense and defense. Phycial damage increase your dps.

Accuracy doesn't increase survivability or offense. Evasion is luck based and unreliable. Did I also mention that they both scale as you lvl, especially evasion.

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markshiu wrote:

No, you mis-understand. As I said, the point is STR >>> INT > DEX

The changes I am suggesting is to restore the balance by replacing HP (STR) with +Armor, MP (INT) with +Magic Attack, and etc.

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH PASSIVE TREE (as I said on the previous comment)

THIS HAS A LOT TO DO WITH PASSIVE TREE (see? I can do annoying exclamations too)

Passive tree is balanced around current stats. Example for your intelligence suggestion:
If we had bonus damage from intelligence, either bonuses from passive tree or base damage would have to be nerfed - current pure DPS spellcasters are extremely easy to play while being possibly the most powerful farmers, so nerf would be needed. Base values would severely affect magic users that don't have much intelligence. If we leave base damage intact then probably we should nerf damage nodes - this would make them unattractive, with bonus from int everyone would just go for other options in the tree.

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Would you please point out where it said STR gives both Life and Armor?

It gives life regeneration, my bad. This is even worse change in overall balance and would have huge effect on passive tree. Life is needed not only for taking damage but also for preventing stuns and freezes. Marauders and templars have no nodes for avoiding elemental states near them. They would either have less life if going for strength or less strength, and in some builds you don't even have luxury of choice and you need strength to simply use your gear.
Melee shadow and ranger would need more life nodes in points where they can now take +30 strength. This would affect their ability to use red skill gems. They would be forced to take other strength bonuses and armor bonus is useless for them.

What is more, this provides a lot of regeneration, which is big change. Regeneration nodes are currently being nerfed. Giving more options for life regeneration would mean you can have incredible regeneration and easily support skills like blood rage and righteous fire, which may be game changing. Further nerfing those nodes would in turn put a duelist with low strength in terrible situation.

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Besides, you are not necessary to nerf anything, if STR=INT=DEX, it should be balanced. The only balance you want is to weight between Passive Tree vs Class Bonus Stats, hint, Customization vs Class restriction.

You contradict yourself. You suggest free bonuses from base stats and agree that they have to be balanced with passive tree. This means that bonuses from passive tree has to be nerfed. See examples above.
_____

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Evasion is luck based, and requires a hefty investment (more than any armor type), and is the worst defensive mechanic in the game currently.

As Mark_GGG stated, evasion is not luck based. As Chris Wilson stated, evasion with a lot of life is currently the strongest defense. I think I will trust devs more than you. What is more, in next patch right side of tree gets more life nodes while regeneration nodes are being nerfed.

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

You are almost right markshiu. Imo, Try STR>>INT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DEX

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Vold316 wrote:

No, that's not a point, that's your perception. From my point of view STR != DEX != INT, but you can get from all of them, also the whole passive tree is designed to balance it.

Furthermore, currently, according to the game mechanics:



At high level, you can have nodes that give % life, % melee physical, % accuracy, % evasion, % mana, % energy shield, and more that improve them.

If you still see a big difference between each stat, those nodes get rid of that difference.

Anyways, i also believe that you can take advantage of any of the stats, if you look at the passive tree and design a good build, but that's not all, you also have to know how to play with that build (Close combat Physical, Close combat elemental, Mid range combat physical, mid range combat elemental, long ranged combat physical, long ranged combat elemental, combinations, etc...).

In the end, even if there is a difference (that i still can't see, honestly), it will no matter.

STR is better than INT, which is even greater than DEX. I'll explain.
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Thank you for posting.
I don't have a high level DEX character, but in theory, it seems you are correct, furthermore, Evasion does not evade casting spells. And from PvP perspective, Evasion doesn't have the advantage as you mentioned.

What you say about Evasion and Accuracy is true, they scale down. But everything else does, the thing is that you don't clearly see it: ES and HP work against mob damage, which increases as you level up, you need more mana because the gems cost mana, and the higher level, the more mana you need because with all the support gems they get expensive, melee damage works against mob physical resistance and life which also increase, it's the same with evasion and accuracy, you need more evasion rating because the mobs get more accuracy rating and you need more accuracy rating because the mobs get more evasion rating... They do scale down, maybe at a different rate.

What may need to be modified a little is the passive tree, and they already did that modification for 0.9.12, so why don't you wait up for that to see how it works?

Also, all what you are talking about is related to close combat survival.

I have a DEX/STR hybrid that so far is doing pretty well. I would never make high survivability melee character based only on DEX or INT or DEX/INT, because it's not possible. From my point of view, they are meant to be support dps builds.

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I don't have a high level DEX character, but in theory, it seems you are correct, furthermore, Evasion does not evade casting spells. And from PvP perspective, Evasion doesn't have the advantage as you mentioned.

I'd suggest you to create one and see it yourself, before than theorize about it.

The more i play, the more it surprices me how well thought this game is.