New Core Stats (STR/DEX/INT) balance

I understand it is very hard to change the core stats (STR/DEX/INT), since everything is based on the core stats, and balancing will require time. However, it seems STR has been too important to be ignored, and pure-DEX becomes less effective.

I can be wrong, and this is not perfect, but just want to start some discussion if something need to be fixed (early rather than later).

My current suggestion (feel free to discuss)
STR
- Increase Physical Damage (+Power)
- Increase Life Recovery (+Defensive Supportive)
- Increase Armor Defense (+Damage Reduction)

INT
- Increase Magical Damage (+Power)
- Increase Spell Radius (+Offensive Supportive)
- Increase Energy Shield (+Direct Defense)

DEX
- Increase Attack Speed and Spell Casting Speed (+Speed)
- Increase Accuracy and Evasion (+Two-way Supportive)
- Increase Elemental Resistance (+Damage Reduction)


HP and MP remain, unless allocate dedicate skill points.

Balance Overall (every class should beat 2 other classes by default tree):
Witch > Templar > Marauder > Duelist > Ranger > Shadow > Witch
(See Note 1 for counter)

Balance between Classes
Witch > Templar and Marauder - out magic tanks
Templar > Marauder > Duelist - out tank DPS
Marauder > Duelist > Ranger - out physical DPS
Duelist > Ranger > Shadow - out duel DPS
Ranger > Shadow > Witch - out DPS range
Shadow > Witch > Templar - out DoT casters
(See Note 2 for counter)


Witch (AOE) vs Duelist (1 vs 1)
Templar (Shield/Defense) vs Ranger (Bow/Offense)
Marauder (Big hit) vs Shadow (Slow dying)

Note 1: The advantage might not be this great. Eg. Pure-Dex can allocate more evasion and add elemental damages against pure-STR. Pure-INT can equip a shield. Pure-STR can allocate elemental resistance and increase life. And etc.

Note 2: Players may allocate points to cover their weaknesses through skill tree. Eg. Bow Templar may lost some defense against Marauder/Duelist, but gain benefits to keep Shadow/Witch further.

I have a 2h sword melee shadow focused on physical damage.
Because fuck you and your classic mmo metagame.

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kadrek91 wrote:

I have a 2h sword melee shadow focused on physical damage.
Because fuck you and your classic mmo metagame.

Did you read my Note 2 before you fuck me?

Edit:
I have no problem with other thoughts, but not reading before claiming something is wrong is just stupid to me. The skill tree never changed, and it works exactly as it is right now, just better balancing between the three core stats.

I don't think attributes should give more stats than they already do.

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anubite wrote:

I don't think attributes should give more stats than they already do.

I agree, perhaps a reduction to the current conversion as well, since we are now giving 3 type of stats, instead of the current 2 stats.

The ideal would be STR=DEX=INT
10 STR =< 1 skill point (eg. 3% increase in physical damage)

Thus, core stats are not restricted to their class (you can be a bow templar, 2h shadow), since the passive points are out weight any core stats by 3 times (see example above).

The detail can be adjust, but the hardest adjustment would be MP usage (scaling for aura and spell casting skills).

One advantage for the current stat (without HP and MP) is the gap between classes are closer (more versatile, I hope), and keystone like Blood Magic and CI are not as important as it is.

Edit:
Corrected, should compare 10 STR vs 3% Physical damage, instead of 30 STR, since both of them are small nodes

If we reduce the impact of each part of a stat, we're basically diluting the effect of stats, which goes against GGG's design theory.

I think passive skills give us more than enough flexibility; attributes mainly to prevent players from easily swapping in/out equipment and gems. Their value outside of that is minor, but supposed to be somewhat helpful for providing a flat base to improve with %-based equipment and passives.

"

anubite wrote:

If we reduce the impact of each part of a stat, we're basically diluting the effect of stats, which goes against GGG's design theory.

I think passive skills give us more than enough flexibility; attributes mainly to prevent players from easily swapping in/out equipment and gems. Their value outside of that is minor, but supposed to be somewhat helpful for providing a flat base to improve with %-based equipment and passives.

When you look at DEX base, it doesn't make much difference, because the bonus of Accuracy and Evasion from equipment are far greater than those little bonus. And I don't see changing the core stats would effect swapping equipment, since the requirement is minimum of DEX, instead of value within DEX.

As for your initial response, the reason why I suggest the new stats is, the difference between STR and DEX are far too much.

If GGG wants to balance the core stats, they should consider removing HP and MP. Simply say, I think the current design theory is flawed, STR with HP (and combine with Life regeneration) is far beyond Evasion (with no combination), plus, you cannot dodge magic attacks. Even though they assume DEX is for range class, but it seems people would create a Ranger for close range combat (contradicting their own theory of creating their own class).

I like the game, but when you have a dominate stat, the game will be hard to balance.

In my opinion this change is too complicated. The current two property system is quite intuitive and easy to remember.

I personally think that the most imbalanced thing with current system is HP bonus from strength, if it was replaced with armour boost (one of the things you suggest), balance would be (almost) restored.

This is mostly because every character with the exception of CI users is using HP and strength characters are getting extreme advantage from this synergy. HP is not exactly a defensive property (it doesn't prevent your HP from being taken away, it is HP); armor, evasion and energy shield are and bonuses to them should be distributed amongst the core stats.

I can see a similar problem with MP but it seems like the game is balanced around this quite well - cost of skills, blood magic, regeneration options, leech. It would still make more sense if INT has the offensive bonus as a boost to elemental damage or spell damage (also one of the things you are suggesting).

So I partially agree but I would keep it a bit more simple.

edit: Just correcting the most obvious typos and other mistakes.
edit 2: When I say HP, I don't mean Harry Potter. I mean 'life'.
edit 3: Yes it was a lame joke.

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wiggin wrote:

In my opinion this change is too complicated. The current two property system is quite intuitive and easy to remember.

I personally think that the most imbalanced thing with current system is HP bonus from strength, if it was replaced with armour boost (one of the things you suggest), balance would be (almost) restored.

This is mostly because every character with the exception of CI users is using HP and strength characters are getting extreme advantage from this synergy. HP is not exactly a defensive property (it doesn't prevent your HP from being taken away, it is HP); armor, evasion and energy shield are and bonuses to them should be distributed amongst the core stats.

I can see a similar problem with MP but it seems like the game is balanced around this quite well - cost of skills, blood magic, regeneration options, leech. It would still make more sense if INT has the offensive bonus as a boost to elemental damage or spell damage (also one of the things you are suggesting).

So I partially agree but I would keep it a bit more simple.

edit: Just correcting the most obvious typos and other mistakes.
edit 2: When I say HP, I don't mean Harry Potter. I mean 'life'.
edit 3: Yes it was a lame joke.

Yes, 2 would be ideal, however
1) It seems Evasion and Accuracy are too weak to be neither be an offensive nor defensive focus
2) Keeping Energy Shield seems to INT seems to make it very powerful.

Anyways, if we are moving HP from stats, I would also like to replace MP with +magic attack (thus, balancing Blood Magic for tank casting build). And some how balance DEX would be great.

"

I understand it is very hard to change the core stats (STR/DEX/INT), since everything is based on the core stats, and balancing will require time. However, it seems STR has been too important to be ignored, and pure-DEX becomes less effective.

I can be wrong, and this is not perfect, but just want to start some discussion if something need to be fixed (early rather than later).

...

I don't see a problem. IMO.

- There are big nodes of STR/INT/DEX all around the passive tree.
- You can get a lot of either of the stats from equipment.
- I'm pretty sure that GGG has thought about this and none of us undestand how this game works better, also i don't really see the important unbalance of the core stats.

In conclusion, from my point of view, a major change on this is not really needed.