The Zeitgeist Movement

I would have to read that book to further argue this with you.
In anny case, what lead people to behave violently and steal, kill, rape, and so on, is (basicly) necessity of acting that way because of lack of education and access to basic structural human needs like water, food, shelter. On the other hand the inequality and mislead values created by the culture that results from a monetary type sistem bring aberrant behaviour from people, specially young adults and teenagers.
When its said that 95% of the people incercerated are there because of financial issues (directly or inderectly) it means that this happens exactly as a response of the competitive and distorted way of life that this present system generates. People don´t steal or kill because they want to. Not even take drugs beacause they simply choose to. They are lead that way.

"conspiracy theorist gibberish, with no evidence to support it"
I´m sorry but thats an opinion, not a fact.
Nothing in the movement goes as conspiracy, for its all based on researches.

"at 1:50 he starts drawing very unscientific conclusions. Yeah, he's using scientific results to come up with these ideas but he talks as if he knows it's going to work without a doubt, which is unscientific because it hasn't been tested."
"Like I said, they're unscientific because they have not been tested."

Most of the aproaches from The Venus Project were and are being tested in a small scale. All of it its a matter of logic. To say that earth doesn´t have enough food for everyone is ridiculous, and proven wrong. To say theres not enough resouces for every human being in the planet to be housed and have a good quality life is ridiculous and proven wrong. All of this is known and the technology to make it work exists, its a mather of using it.
www.zeitnews.org
Look this up you´d be surprised from what allreaddy exists in technology outhere and its being stoped for no other reason but profit and money.

" but the way they presented it was deceptive and people who were less informed about the corrections system would easily be misled by that"

By "correction system" you mean the punitive carceral system wich shows a growth in its population troughout history and doesn´t seem to stop? You mean the act of puting people away because they did something to survive, once they dont have acces to the basic things they need to live? I´m sorry but "correction" is a really poor word to describe the carceral system. To imprison someone is just to put away people because not having a clue on how educating them, or in a worse perspective, putting away people because of knowing exactly what to do and not wanting to do it because it isnt profitable.

You have to agree with me that this carceral is a failed system and shows no "correction" on those who enter it. Its just a form of getting rid off people who doesn´t behave how they SHOULD. It doesnt treats the cause of the problem, off course not, once the system itself is the verry cause.

And "the old guy" you refered to is Jacque Fresco. You should learn about him before saying the only 2 with credentials are the first two interviewees.

And, I´m sorry mate, but if you can´t agree that there are a ridiculously small group of people who gets the better edge in this stratifyed sistem, and that they would do annything not to let it go...
The Movement DO NOT recognize this as a conspiratory group who gets together in the middle of the night to plan how to rule the world. This is childish. But its natural that, on a piramidal builded society, an "in-group" will naturally (and even unconectedly) be formed.
1% of the world´s population owns 40% of the world´s money.
If im not mistaken, 50% of the world´s population leaves with less then 2 dollars a day. Its a world where 34 000 children die everyday of poverty and preventable desieses.

Annyways, these details aside, what did you think of the overall concept of the movement? Do you disagree that the present economic/political/social systems are messed up and are creating hunger, poverty and a culture of mindless ciclycal consumption thats destroing both earth and humans?
Or you think that this is also an "unscientific" vision of reality, and everything is just right?
Do you belive in the carceral sistem, for example, to be an effective way of reeducating people? Do you think is working?

Well haters going to hate i suppose.

Question answered by Jacque Fresco:

Do you advocate killing anyone people with aberrant behavior?

"By "mentally unstable" or "aberrant people" do you mean those of GE who are some of the biggest polluters of the environment and knowingly exposed their workers to carcinogens that caused their deaths, or those that manipulate money for profit without contributing to the well being of people's lives, or those who lend money for an automobile for example and if the person cannot pay off the last payment they do not take a tire and the steering wheel equivalent to the payment, they take the whole car? Or perhaps you may mean judges who put people in jail for life for killing over resources, yet the leaders of nations bomb and kill entire cities and countries for resources and to secure markets and then put statues in parks to honor the ones who carry out this procedure?

There would have to be an awful lot of killing going on if a saner society wanted to rid itself of "unstable" or "aberrant" behavior. No, we do not advocate killing anyone. We think that this system is like a cancer on a cat that is eating its host and it will do away with itself in time. The mere march of events of technology will eventually do away with jobs that enable people to buy the goods turned out, and new social designs will have to emerge. We feel that at that time a military dictatorship will most likely occur. We would like to introduce the concepts of a resource-based economy to the public so they will understand that there are other possible alternatives."

Lucask,

The problem with all of this is simple. The entire movement is based on a flawed premise. That being:

"People, are more or less, logical."

People aren't logical. this movement of yours is nothing more then fantasy.

this thread is to offtopic for me:D

"

innoruuk wrote:

this thread is to offtopic for me:D

agreed

Generally a game forum has an off topic to discuss other GAMES, or things related to it like hardware, programming, whatever.

So topics like this one, politics, religion...well they usually don't win in popularity. Especially when the topic starter has a closed mind and simply argues with everything anyone says that is opposite their point of view.

The man took the time to watch a two hour movie and respond. At least show him the courtesy of acknowledging that.

To Fruitlord:
"Especially when the topic starter has a closed mind and simply argues with everything anyone says that is opposite their point of view."

I´m not closed minded. It´s not a sign of an opened mind to "thumbs up" with arguments that i don´t agree with. I respect every opinion in here, but I have yet to be proven wrong about the Movements ideals and aproaches.

"The man took the time to watch a two hour movie and respond. At least show him the courtesy of acknowledging that."

He done that because he wanted to. I don´t have to agree with his arguments just to be kind with him for watching the movie. Plus, this thread isn´t to convence annyone about annything. It´s just a place for a conversation between those who want to...

Respectfully,

To Wittgenstein:
"It'll NEVER work"

Many people (usually individuals that have done no research other than to watch the movie)
have stated their incredible wisdom on why the Venus Project cannot possibly work.
Well, they are in great company with many other intelligent minds and leaders of the past!
These great leaders had NO foresight and BOLDLY stated that IT CAN’T BE DONE!!

[Television] won't be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months.
People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night.
- Darryl F. Zanuck, head of 20th Century-Fox, 1946.

"You would make a ship sail against the winds and currents by lighting a bon-fire under her deck... I have no time for such nonsense."
Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821) , commenting on Fulton's Steamship

Computers in the future may...perhaps only weigh 1.5 tons.
- Popular Mechanics, 1949.

There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home.
- Kenneth Olsen, president and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.

The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty—a fad.
- Advice from a president of the Michigan Savings Bank to Henry Ford's lawyer Horace
Rackham. Rackham ignored the advice and invested $5000 in Ford stock, selling it later for
$12.5 million.

Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value.
- Marshal Ferdinand Foch, French military strategist, 1911. He was later a World War I
commander.

While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially I
consider it an impossibility, a development of which we need waste little time dreaming.
- Lee DeForest, 1926 (American radio pioneer and inventor of the vacuum tube.)

Radio has no future.
- Lord Kelvin (1824-1907), British mathematician and physicist, ca. 1897.

Well informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires and that were it
possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value.
- Editorial in the Boston Post (1865)

This `telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a practical form of
communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.
- Western Union internal memo, 1878

Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.
- Lord Kelvin (1824-1907), ca. 1895, British mathematician and physicist

[W]hen the Paris Exhibition closes electric light will close with it and no more be heard of.
- Erasmus Wilson (1878) Professor at Oxford University

"Man will not fly for a thousand years".
- New York Times Editorial on the foolishness of pursuing manned flight, December 1903.

"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction".
- Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

What use could this company make of an electrical toy?
- Western Union president William Orton, responding to an offer from Alexander Graham
Bell to sell his telephone company to Western Union for $100,000.

"I would sooner believe that two Yankee professors lied, than that stones fell from the sky"
- Thomas Jefferson, after hearing reports of meteorites.

"Such startling announcements as these should be deprecated as being unworthy of science
and mischievous to its true progress."
- Sir William Siemens, 1880, on Edison's announcement of a successful light bulb.

"We are probably nearing the limit of all we can know about astronomy."
- Simon Newcomb, astronomer, 1888

The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it. . . . Knife
and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the
patient.
- Dr. Alfred Velpeau (1839) French surgeon

The foolish idea of shooting at the moon is an example of the absurd length to which vicious
specialization will carry scientists working in thought-tight compartments.
- A.W. Bickerton (1926) Professor of Physics and Chemistry, Canterbury College, New
Zealand

"That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the
fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced. "
- Scientific American, Jan. 2, 1909

There is a young madman proposing to light the streets of London—with what do you
suppose—with smoke!
- Sir Walter Scott (1771-1832) [On a proposal to light cities with gaslight.]

The Kölonische Zeitung [Köln, Germany, 28 March 1819] listed six grave reasons against
street lighting, including these:
1. Theological: It is an intervention in God's order, which makes nights dark...
2. Medical: It will be easier for people to be in the streets at night, afflicting them with
colds...
3. Philosophical-moral: Morality deteriorates through street lighting. Artificial lighting drives
out fear of the dark, which keeps the weak from sinning...

They will never try to steal the phonograph because it has no `commercial value.'
- Thomas Edison (1847-1931). (He later revised that opinion.)

A new source of power... called gasoline has been produced by a Boston engineer. Instead of
burning the fuel under a boiler, it is exploded inside the cylinder of an engine.

The dangers are obvious. Stores of gasoline in the hands of people interested primarily in
profit would constitute a fire and explosive hazard of the first rank. Horseless carriages
propelled by gasoline might attain speeds of 14 or even 20 miles per hour. The menace to our
people of vehicles of this type hurtling through our streets and along our roads and poisoning
the atmosphere would call for prompt legislative action even if the military and economic
implications were not so overwhelming... [T]he cost of producing [gasoline] is far beyond the
financial capacity of private industry... In addition the development of this new power may
displace the use of horses, which would wreck our agriculture.
- U. S. Congressional Record, 1875.

There is not in sight any source of energy that would be a fair start toward that which would
be necessary to get us beyond the gravitative control of the earth.
- Forest Ray Moulton (1872-1952), astronomer, 1935.

To place a man in a multi-stage rocket and project him into the controlling gravitational field
of the moon where the passengers can make scientific observations, perhaps land alive, and
then return to earth--all that constitutes a wild dream worthy of Jules Verne. I am bold
enough to say that such a man-made voyage will never occur regardless of all future
advances.
- Lee deForest (1873-1961) (American radio pioneer and inventor of the vacuum tube.) Feb
25, 1957.

WHY BOTHER?

If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it
can't be done.
- Peter Ustinov (1921 – 2004)

It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and
the reality of tomorrow.
- Robert Goddard (1882-1945)

For those interested in reading an outstanding look into the future (written in 1969)
http://www.thevenusproject.com/media/do ... orward.pdf

"

Wittgenstein wrote:

Lucask,

The problem with all of this is simple. The entire movement is based on a flawed premise. That being:

"People, are more or less, logical."

People aren't logical. this movement of yours is nothing more then fantasy.

Acctually the movement is not based on this premisse. It´s, in fact, showing the verry opposite of that: we aren´t BEING logical in our aproach with our life on earth.
And i have to respectfully disagree with you when you say "people aren´t logical", for when you put it that way makes it seem like humans are in a petryfied state of being, as in: people are emotional; people are logical; people are faithless. When you say people aren´t logical, youre wrong, cause in manny aproaches of life we are. But, of course, we are not only logical. We also are emotional and have manny other characteristics of behavior in us.
The fact is we are not behaving logically in the present establishment and this will (and is allreaddy hapening) bring some verry sad consequences.

You see, mate, the problem is people are being too stucked minded. We aproach every idea of change using the reference of our current social/cultural state. Almost everything (at least technology wise) we have today was labled as fantasy/impossible in the past.
And to say this movement is nothing more then fantasy...well, imho, to say that the present social/cultural/economic system is sustainable is a "fantasy".
In fact, this statement of yours has no argument basis. If it does, please show me why it cant be done. Or what is wrong about the ideas you saw.