Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.
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mercetron wrote:
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AceNightfire wrote:
That means, if something drops that is magic/rare/unique, then everyone will have a timer THAT LOCKS THE ITEM (and not reserve it). The timer should be 5 seconds, that's more then enough time for everyone to get close to the item. So even ranged characters will be there. After the 5 seconds have passed, the item gets unlocked for everyone and then the competition of grabbing the item begins.
Doesn't solve the main problem for me, which is that the focus turns from team play and combat to loot hawking.
Also, in Path of Exile white items can often be superior to magical ones, depending on the character build. The developers have mentioned this as well when regretting adding a "highlight only magical items" toggle (or something like that).
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iamstryker wrote:
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AceNightfire wrote:
That means, if something drops that is magic/rare/unique, then everyone will have a timer THAT LOCKS THE ITEM (and not reserve it). The timer should be 5 seconds, that's more then enough time for everyone to get close to the item. So even ranged characters will be there. After the 5 seconds have passed, the item gets unlocked for everyone and then the competition of grabbing the item begins.
I understand why your making this suggestion but please think about it. A great item drops and the whole party sees it. Everyone crowds around it and when the timer expires.....CLICKFEST!!!!!. The fastest and luckiest clicker wins.
Technically your system is more fair than the current one but its still dumb. The luckiest spam clicker wins? I would definitely never play that.
You guys don't get it, do you? GGG wants the competition. So the only choice we have is to find a way that makes it fair at last for everyone.
And about the clickfest: Imagine a great item drops and it is RESERVED for someone and you NEVER had the chance to get it! That's even more frustrating, especially when you are a ranged fighter.
Right, well I like to consider all possiblities and fight the ones I don't want. Let's say, hypothetically, GGG decides to implement options in Default. Then that creeps, for whatever reason, to every other league. That would most certainly effect me. I'm assuming this thread is only for Default. Simply because that's what I've been told. And even if it is, that could change for whatever reason.
Option = you can opt out. It won't affect you, even if it gets into Hardcore League, because you would be able to play in parties using FFA.
As a game designer, do you not realize that what is in a game matters just as much to a player as what isn't?
For me, having the option to avoid FFA would defeat the purpose of having FFA at all. The relative point of FFA, in regards to the developers, is to create this cut throat atmosphere. If there's a way to opt out of this, it is pointless to have it at all.
This is why giving a choice isn't really a choice. The very existence of another loot system makes having the original, in any form, pointless. It defeats the purpose.
The only reason having Default doesn't affect Hardcore in the same way is that they don't interact (dying in HC irrelevant as you can't come back).
And this is why we say they must choose. One or the other. Because, for some players, having both means one is pointless to have at all. And if they are to consider what you want, they must also consider what we, other players, want as well. But what we both want is incompatible.
In regards to the "Default doesn't effect HC the same way" thing, a non-FFA loot system would make the game easier since players wouldn't have to compete for drops. Conversely, FFA would be harder, so players who chose FFA would be playing a harder game, overall, than the ones who chose non-FFA. Is that fair? That the two populations of players playing at different, albeit, if only slightly, difficulties mix and interact?
Let me ask this, would it be fair if the Default and Hardcore leagues could interact as though they were one league? Only that Default players played by default rules and HC by HC rules? The difference between the two is more extreme, but it's the same principle.
If you say yes, in regards to it being fair if the two player pools mix that choose different loot systems to play by, because it's based on player choice in how they want to play, the ranged VS melee arguement applies here since that is also a player choice based on how they want to play and it also effects their chances for getting loot. Sort of a tangent but relevant either way.
Anyway, my point is, it will most certainly affect me. It will change how I play and experience the game. Enough to matter.
I don't see why one loot system would make another pointless. Take a game like WoW, for example, where different parties used different systems. The choice was there and didn't negatively cross-affect different parties. Just like having an option in FPS for inverting the vertical axis won't affect non-inverting players badly, or make the inverted option pointless.
I can slightly understand what you mean about "being harder", but still, it's as you say an extreme difference between Default and Hardcore league as it is. This is a slippery slope fallacy.
Yet, I'm not really buying that it would be 'harder' with FFA loot as opposed to instanced loot. In FFA, you could potentially loot far more than you should and it wouldn't be as much up to skill as being luckily close to the item at the right time. In instanced loot, you wouldn't even be able to get that much loot, making it harder (impossible) to snag everything. You would, in fact, be getting less loot with an instanced system even if you're a super fast looter.
And about the clickfest: Imagine a great item drops and it is RESERVED for someone and you NEVER had the chance to get it! That's even more frustrating, especially when you are a ranged fighter.
It wouldn't, because with instanced loot you wouldn't see the item and you wouldn't be frustrated.
And again, if you don't like it, you wouldn't opt for instanced loot in your party.
Again, it blows my mind how "option" is so impossibly easy to misunderstand as being "forced upon me".
And about the clickfest: Imagine a great item drops and it is RESERVED for someone and you NEVER had the chance to get it! That's even more frustrating, especially when you are a ranged fighter.
I personally don't see that as frustrating at all. Its just non competitive and completely fair. Its not any different than me playing single player for one hour and finding no rares or uniques and a buddy of mine also playing single player and finds multiple rares and a unique. I wouldn't complain about that so I wouldn't complain about your scenerio either. Its fair because its random. Just like item drops are random and using orbs on items is random.
If it takes me one fusings to get a 4L and it takes you 10 fusings to get a 4L thats still fair because we both had the exact same odds of getting it.
I wish a developer would chime in and finally tell us where they stand in this discussion. The last post from Chris takes us back to 4-may-2011. People claim the developers here want to discuss things and they do it, just not in this thread it seems. Not really promising.
I wish a developer would chime in and finally tell us where they stand in this discussion. The last post from Chris takes us back to 4-may-2011. People claim the developers here want to discuss things and they do it, just not in this thread it seems. Not really promising.
Yeah. Yet I understand not wanting to dip one's head into such an infernally hot topic. Not replying doesn't have to mean not caring.
For me, having the option to avoid FFA would defeat the purpose of having FFA at all. The relative point of FFA, in regards to the developers, is to create this cut throat atmosphere. If there's a way to opt out of this, it is pointless to have it at all.
I would be in agreement with you if that was true in this game. But its not, I can opt out of FFA anytime by playing in private games or single player. So I guess you agree with me that its pointless to have it at all eh?
The supposed "cutthroat atmosphere" in this game is a complete joke.
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TremorAcePV wrote:
And this is why we say they must choose. One or the other. Because, for some players, having both means one is pointless to have at all.
Please explain in more detail why you can't enjoy FFA if there is another option. You do enjoy FFA right? So how does that enjoyment simply vanish?
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TremorAcePV wrote:
In regards to the "Default doesn't effect HC the same way" thing, a non-FFA loot system would make the game easier since players wouldn't have to compete for drops. Conversely, FFA would be harder, so players who chose FFA would be playing a harder game, overall, than the ones who chose non-FFA. Is that fair? That the two populations of players playing at different, albeit, if only slightly, difficulties mix and interact?
Why are you resorting to this terrible argument again? Private parties are the EASIEST way to play the game and the most popular way to play the game. I don't hear you upset that those exist. Oh and people don't compete in those either (That I have ever heard anyway). FFA isn't really a hard way to play, for some people its extremely easy for them to focus on the drops and get more loot. Its hard because it forces on you a playstyle that you might completely hate. Its an artificial way to give the game more difficulty. Its like if the devs randomly stole your items out of your inventory. Would that be harder? Technically.
It wouldn't, because with instanced loot you wouldn't see the item and you wouldn't be frustrated.
And again, if you don't like it, you wouldn't opt for instanced loot in your party.
Again, it blows my mind how "option" is so impossibly easy to misunderstand as being "forced upon me".
People already said that instanced is out of question, becuase it uses up to many server ressources to give every players his personal instance. So we have to find a solution that is working without instanced.
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iamstryker wrote:
I personally don't see that as frustrating at all. Its just non competitive and completely fair. Its not any different than me playing single player for one hour and finding no rares or uniques and a buddy of mine also playing single player and finds multiple rares and a unique. I wouldn't complain about that so I wouldn't complain about your scenerio either. Its fair because its random. Just like item drops are random and using orbs on items is random.
If it takes me one fusings to get a 4L and it takes you 10 fusings to get a 4L thats still fair because we both had the exact same odds of getting it.
You compare things that you can't compare... If you and your find playing solo, you get what you fighted for (or not). But if you play together, you were helping to kill the enemies. You did some work, you mostly did as much as your teammate but yet he gets the item. It is even more frustrating if you give much increased item rarity/quanitity for the party and only all the others get the timers for themselves and you never had the chance to get the item, even when the item may only have dropped because of your IIR/IIQ stuff.
In a solo game, you and only you would benefit from IIR/IIQ, but with randomized timers it may happen that you never get a good item. With loked timers for everyone, everyone had the chance to make the lucky click and get the item. That much more fair then anything else here.
I don't see why one loot system would make another pointless. Take a game like WoW, for example, where different parties used different systems. The choice was there and didn't negatively cross-affect different parties. Just like having an option in FPS for inverting the vertical axis won't affect non-inverting players badly, or make the inverted option pointless.
I can slightly understand what you mean about "being harder", but still, it's as you say an extreme difference between Default and Hardcore league as it is. This is a slippery slope fallacy.
Yet, I'm not really buying that it would be 'harder' with FFA loot as opposed to instanced loot. In FFA, you could potentially loot far more than you should and it wouldn't be as much up to skill as being luckily close to the item at the right time. In instanced loot, you wouldn't even be able to get that much loot, making it harder (impossible) to snag everything. You would, in fact, be getting less loot with an instanced system even if you're a super fast looter.
Using WoW as an example of good game design is never a good idea. That isn't a direct quote from a moderator (I would guess it was Charan, but that's a guess) but one said that, I am completely certain. The example they used was that WoW being incredibly popular spawned alllll these WoW clones that were never even close to as good as WoW. The point was copying WoW is not a good thing simply because WoW was successful.
That and WoW =/= PoE. WoW = MMORPG; PoE = ARPG. Two different genres of games.
Comparing inversion of crosshairs to different loot systems is like comparing how I set up my skills versus how someone else, with the exact same skills as me, sets up theirs (i.e. my fireball is my right click button whereas their fireball is F) to me playing on Hard and them playing on Medium in a game with difficulty choices. It's not the same. Not even close.
The difference, particularly, is that inverted crosshairs for a non-inverted player is only harder because they are not used to it. Not because of how the inverted crosshairs, themselves, are designed.
The options you think of are FFA VS Instanced? Instance won't happen because of the reason I gave iamstryker. It's far too hard on server resources. The reason instances are closed every 8-15 mins is to save on server resources. They have talked about how they are going to increase the time once the game is more optimized and they can handle it. Adding instanced loot would magnify/multiply the problem which would make it beyond unmanageable.
The other option I was thinking of was allocated loot. Where the server decides (You get this, and you get this, etc etc) but everyone shares the same loot on screen. This is easier because other players can't pick up the loot. Only you can. You can't take loot that was allocated to other players, but you are guaranteed loot equal to what they got. (X amount of Y where Y is rarity)
Whereas, in FFA, someone else could pick up a piece of loot you needed before you do. Making the game harder since it's largely loot/gear based. At the same time, it could be easier if you took all the loot, but then people would likely not party with you and you'd be forced to solo. I guess it's more of a gamble in that sense.
Also, FYI, loot in groups is equal to loot when you solo. The only difference is that there are more rare mobs such as blues and yellows meaning more items via that. You can also stack rarity/quantity more in groups, but that's private as you'd need to coordinate for it to matter.
However, that creates a problem in groups with the idea of instanced loot. Since a group means more blue/yellow mobs, if you are in instanced loot, it would be the normal loot for the entire group multiplied by the number of people in that group, meaning it's the equivalent of you farming an area on your, EXCEPT that the extra blues/yellows mean you get quite a bit more loot than a player in FFA since it would be 1 (of total normal loot for an entire group) divided by the group members.
I suppose they could mess with the rates so that FFA gets the same amount of loot as an entire group of instanced loot or vice versa, but then either instanced loot players would get far less each (since it's 1 divided by group members in FFA) or FFA gets X times as much as normal where X is group members.
Either way, the game is imbalanced in that one group is getting far more than the other. It just creates so many problems.
Edit: I'm going to repost this from over 100 pages or so back.
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TremorAcePV wrote:
Spoiler
Basically, loot doesn't appear (it drops, but can't be seen or picked up) until all monsters in an instance are dead.
That fixes the following problems:
Looting while fighting - Breaks up combat, which isn't fun for most players.
Lag - Everyone is just as oblivious to items off screen as the rest of their groups, bosses and areas where the last monster is killed, the exceptions.
Ninja's - Everyone has just as much chance to find a good drop as the rest. Since everyone starts at the same time, it's fair.
Melee and Ranged aren't distinguished.
^^^Every problem the current loot system has (minus entitlement)
The only problem I can see is:
Movement speed stackers and skills that make movement faster/easier. But that's no different than build choice imo.
Added to that suggestion:
It can be an option, when making a public group to make it so that when the last monster is killed, it becomes open PVP and the last man standing gets the loot. Loot can't be picked up until this is over. Very cut throat. Purely player choice to join/create the group though.
Now, when the last monster is killed, the instance would be locked so that only the players in it when that happens are the only ones who can go to it. Preventing people from ninja-ing from recently cleared instances.
Last edited by TremorAcePV#7356 on Feb 27, 2013, 5:07:45 AM
It wouldn't, because with instanced loot you wouldn't see the item and you wouldn't be frustrated.
And again, if you don't like it, you wouldn't opt for instanced loot in your party.
Again, it blows my mind how "option" is so impossibly easy to misunderstand as being "forced upon me".
People already said that instanced is out of question, becuase it uses up to many server ressources to give every players his personal instance. So we have to find a solution that is working without instanced.
And just a few moments ago I explained how that is nonsense and how FFA with timers would in fact use more resources than purely instanced loot...
